What's worse:

1-9 with lottery cast or 0-12 with prime AD?

1-9 with a cast like the 04' Cavs....

or 0-12 with prime AD and veteran cast?

I don't disagree with you, this isn't an argument against MJ, I also have him number one. Was simply just asking how much impact these advanced stats should have when determining how truly great a player was.

What you're saying is true and increases the magnitude MJ's peak 8 year window of dominance. I feel like this also, more than anything else, signifies the quality of their teammates. Both Kareem in the 70's and Lebron in the 2000's did not have championship caliber rosters in my opinion. I also don't have the stats in front of me, but I'd guess Wilt carried a similar, if not larger scoring load, and Lebron's scoring load was just as high when you factor in assists, which gives a more accurate overall impact on scoring. I'm sure defenses were equally as focused on stopping Lebron or Kareem as they were MJ.

Lastly, MJ did need great scoring help. He didn't win anything until Pippen became an all-star and 20ppg player. This isn't a criticism of MJ (again I have him one), every player in NBA history has needed great scoring/defensive help to win a championship.

The problem with that is pipe only have 4 season of 20ppgs with MJ winning and I’m very generous rounding those 19ppg .

.
1994 2nd Round








Other stats must be used to gauge the quality of the stats you mentioned - things like winning, team offensive rank, team assists (ball movement), teammates playing near capacity (near career highs), good fits (no westbrook-lebron fits)... i.e.. people don't realize that bad fits = skill deficit, so good PER with bad fit and subsequent losing deflates the value of the PER or PPG..

In the case of Lebron/Westbrook, the skill deficit is lack of expert jumpshooting skill and instinct to play off teammates, aka off-ball - neither Westbrook or Lebron had these skills to fit with each other.. This isn't a one-off - Lebron reliance on ball-dominance (a lesser version of "luka-ball") has a long list of bad fits with other ball-handlers like Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, and even Wade, IT, Clarkson and many more.




After they both made the 2005 all-star team, Lebron and Zydrunas acquired a HOF coach (Mike Brown) and player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:

05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D

Jordan would obviously 3-peat with that.. The reason Lebron failed with Hughes is because it was a horrible fit just like Lebron-Westbrook... Hughes cratered alongside Lebron.

Of course it's bball 101 that bad fits = skill deficit.... i.e. spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Lebron, Hughes, Westbrook, or Ingram need great shooters around them and therefore don't fit with each other.

This need for shooters to have good fits and also to provide spacing for drives is a weakness of ball-handlers.. In contrast, expert jumpshooters like Curry and MJ fit great with other ball-handlers while also needing less spacing since they can shoot over defenses as a standard.

Ultimately, the primary reason for Curry and MJ's superior chemistry and winning is because they were elite on-ball AND off-ball, so they fit with any player or system, while Lebron is only elite on-ball, which limits chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching (and therefore winning & team ceiling/Finals record).. We've seen this now for 21 years when we look back on Lebron's career (now effectively finished)... Hindsight is always 20/20.




Jamison is a rare 20k scorer and outplayed Lebron in the 2007 1st Round by averaging 32/10 on 55%... So he's a far superior scorer to Pippen, yet Lebron had him at 3rd option in 2010... So the 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. And the Cavs had better defenses back in 2007 too, which was long before Lebron became an all-defensive player, so the Cavs always had more defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls..

fyi - the Bulls only had the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th), which was worse than every ECF and Finals opponent (91' Lakers, 91' Pistons, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks), except the 93' Suns.. Meanwhile, the 09' and 10' Cavs had the #3 and #7 defenses, so they had better defenses and more scoring options.




Finals career

Lebron'......... 28 on 49%
Kyrie............. 28 on 47%
AD................. 25 on 55%
Wade............ 24 on 47%

Jordan........... 34 on 48%
Pippen.......... 19 on 42%


^^^ someone doesn't belong

Lebron had far more scoring help, so he didn't have to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention).

Everyone in history had equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention - only MJ faced max defensive attention for his entire career (carried scoring load).




In the 93' Finals, both the Bulls and Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORTG, so every ounce of Jordan's 41 was needed... The fact that Pippen averaged 20 on horrific efficiency means nothing - it's horrible scoring help when the 1st option must average 41 and defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).. Btw, we know that Pippen couldn't handle additional load in that series because he shot 46.9 true shooting.

Furthermore, Jordan won with Pippen getting 20, but he also won with Pippen getting much less than 20 on worst-ever efficiency too (see chart above).. People forget that MJ nearly beat the Bad Boys in 1989 but Pippen missed Game 6 and only had 7 points in Game 5.. He essentially missed Games 5 and 6 in 89', and then missed Game 7 in 1990 with the infamous "migraine"... If Pippen had provided 10 points in these games, MJ would've beaten the Bad Boys in 89' and 90' with essentially no help - and when MJ finally started winning from 91-98', that's basically what he was getting from Pippen - the bare minimum such as 15.7 on 34% in the 96' and 98' Finals, or 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, or worst-ever efficiency in the 93' Playoffs & Finals, and also the 96-98' Playoffs & Finals - Pippen was a historic bricklayer and lane-clogger as the picture shows above.

In addition to historic bricklaying and lane-clogging, Pippen had worst-ever 4th quarter and clutch stats, while also having zero big shots in his entire career.. Infact, Kukoc was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for the entire 98' Playoffs - he led Pippen in 4th quarter scoring, while also starting over Rodman at PF... (Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs and averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs).




Everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES.. Accordingly, only MJ was forced to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load)... He did so for every title run, and also every regular season, playoff series and Finals of his career.... Jordan was forced to carry the scoring load because 20 ppg is a low peak capability for a sidekick, which is why Shaq said Pippen wasn't on the scouting report (system player).. Other sidekicks led the team in scoring for playoff runs and took defensive attention away from the 1st option (they dominated), while Pippen never did.

Regarding MJ and Lebron specifically, Lebron never carried weak help over top teams like MJ did, such as losing with 18 on 38% from Mo Williams - this is just one example but Lebron never beat any top 5 SRS or Finals team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while MJ did all the time.. So MJ routinely beat top teams with weak help, while Lebron never did.




Kareem was lottery for many years while being MVP, so we aren't even talking about championship rosters with him - just make the damn playoffs.

Regarding Lebron, nearly every top 20 all-time player had an organic juggernaut by Year 7 such as Curry, Giannis, Jokic, MJ and Lebron - these guys achieved league favorite status with normal or "organic" casts of 1 franchise player and a secondary producer at sidekick..

The difference is that Lebron gave up after Year 7 and teamed up with opposing franchise players thereafter - he achieved a greater roster than the 1 franchise player model roster by teaming up with multiple franchise players to achieve a "super-team" (3 franchise players on 1 team).. Yet he still mostly lost with each cast that he had - he never proved that he could have a dominant team that mostly won each year, regardless of what cast he's given, aka objectively inferior to MJ (6/6) and many others that achieved dominant teams.

But MJ stands alone because he was unbeatable the instant he got 1 star teammate (6 titles in 7 years), while Lebron mostly lost with 2 star teammates (3 titles in 7 years from 11-17').. MJ is essentially punished for winning with the first all-star he ever received and never needing another one, while everyone else in history needed many all-star teammates and still won much less than MJ.




When Pippen finally took over the reigns of the most well-oiled machine ever in 1994, he averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 94' 2nd Round (stats in picture above).

The reality is that opponents no longer circled their calendars or planned what they would tell grandkids before playing the Bulls in 94' - no one gave a crap about playing the Bulls without the GOAT and it was a huge letdown for opponents.. But once the cat was out of the bag and opponents woke up, the "real" Bulls without MJ embarrassed themselves in the 94' Playoffs and were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber in his first full season back..

If MJ never returned, the 3-peat Bulls would've fallen to lottery in 95' or 96', so Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months.. Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, as we saw in 95' with the Bulls.. He was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever, so he isn't a true franchise player that can build a 50-win team from scratch - i.e. imagine removing MJ and "the shot" from the 89' Bulls team and seeing if they become champs by 91'.. So Pippen can't build a team from scratch and he can't have a real 50-win team that can win 50 every year as saw in 95' - Pippen simply isn't a franchise player.




Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone starting in 2015 onwards:

Playoffs

85-93' Jordan............. 35/7/7 (6.6 apg)
06-14' Lebron............ 28/8/6 (6.4 apg)

In addition to passing less than Jordan for the first half of his chips, Lebron wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half of his chips (no all-defense in his 30's).

Rings count for something obviously, just not everything. If LeBron had none he couldn't really be in the discussion. 4 rings with 4 finals MVPs and 4 regular season MVPs is plenty enough.

He played in a different era and against different team and with different teams. And during the period of his career, he has the most MVPs, and most finals MVPs. Anybody who puts Curry and Kobe above him is obviously a fool.

Larry Hughes has 1 season where he wasn't awful but that's the only one twog considers

Don't you love TWOG's eagerness when he sees a new poster, he can finally copy and paste his giant walls of texts that no one else reads.

It's clear that Hughes was coming into his own at 26 years old with 2 good seasons alongside an expert jumpshooter (Arenas).. this is the same age that Pippen showed improvement and came into his own alongside Jordan.

But then Hughes cratered alongside Lebron just like Westbrook, Ingram, and other spotty-shooting ball-handlers.

The previous poster posted about PER, VORP and other stats, so I was responding to him using those same stats - the stats showed that the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas acquired a player that was better than 1990 pippen (on both sides of the ball) before entering their first playoffs in 2006!!!... So Lebron's first playoff teams were 3rd-year teams and veteran high seeds, while MJ was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with nothing and no coaching... Yet people want to compare Jordan's 1-9 teams with Lebron's veteran high seeds from 06-10'... of course, Lebron is now 0-12 with AD vs Jokic, which is far worse than MJ being 1-9 with no cast.

Rounded either way to the nearest whole number, Pip's averaged in first 3 seasons respectably, 8, 14 and 17.

In the six seasons the Bulls won rings, Pip averaged 18, 21, 19, 19, 20, 19. His average in those 6 years combined was 19.35 ppg. I don't think it's that "generous" or a "problem" to classify him a 20 points per game scorer for those six years. Regardless my original point stands, MJ didn't win anything until Pippen became an all-star and a 20ppg (19.35ppg) player. This isn't a criticism of MJ (again I have him one all time), every player in NBA history has needed great scoring/defensive help to win a championship.

Ultimately, MJ was unbeatable with 1 other star, while Lebron was extremely beatable and mostly lost with 2 stars.

I don't know how Lebron fans overcome that..

Lebron mostly lost with every cast and never showed that he could be unbeatable with any cast.. "Unbeatable" means a stretch of mostly winning with a given cast (aka 3 chips in 4 years or something like that).. Obviously, Jordan took this to the extreme by not losing more than 2 straight games for 9 straight years the INSTANT he got 1 all-star (90-98') and winning 2 three-peats (6 chips in 7 years for MJ).

Again, I don't see how Lebron fans overcome this obvious chasm in winning ability... This includes the aforementioned historical record, but also the obvious eye test of chemistry/fits and ability to elevate teammates.. It's intuitive that 21 years of Lebron's teammates playing poorly means that Lebron is the problem and the constant factor, not the ever-changing teammates..

So there's the issue of winning ability (chemistry and elevating teammates), while also having the sheer individual statistical or accolade dominance - MJ had superior MVP count and all-defensive caliber throughout a 10-year period (88-98), compared to Lebron's brief 5-year period of winning either MVP's or all-defense (09-14') - he was only an MVP or all-defensive caliber for 5 years... So Lebron has less individual performance while also lacking a record of goat winning and winning ability (chemistry and teammate elevation).

19.35 on bad efficiency isn't good scoring help and it's extremely low peak capability that put all the defensive attention on MJ... Opponents didn't gameplan for Pippen's transition or flow points (system player) and they could sag off and clog the lane... Every other notable 1st option in the 90's had much more help than that, such as a sidekick that could carry the team to the Finals.

For example, show me where Pippen carried his team to the Finals by averaging 26/4/8 with 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts) because that's what Terry Porter did in the 92' WCF - he led the Blazers to the Finals and dominated those playoffs.. Similarly, Stockton dominated the 97' WCF and led the Jazz to the Finals, or Worthy averaged 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF to lead the Lakers to the Finals - he also led the Lakers in scoring for hte 91' title run... Payton and Kemp alternated leading the team and both destroyed Pippen in the Finals... KJ dominated Magic to make the 90' WCF in upset fashion, and he also averaged 28/5/9 in 2 different seven-game series against Hakeem in the 94' and 95' Playoffs..

Again, only Pippen had low peak capability and was nothing outside the system - he averaged 14 on 43% in Houston just a few months after averaging 20 in the triangle.. Pippen's "system player" capability forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) - this is unique to MJ - no one had to carry the scoring load anywhere near the extend that MJ did.. Everyone in history had teammates lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 in every SERIES.. So there's no comparison to MJ.. Only the goat didn't need great scoring help, while everyone else did.

Btw, in addition to having greater scoring help, most 1st options in the 90's had an all-time floor general at sidekick that could average 10 APG (Stockton, KJ, Payton, Hardaway), while Jordan was stuck with Pippen's 5 APG... So Jordan had less scoring and playmaking help than his peers, hence the goat stats that Jordan was forced to achieve (PER, PPG, BPM, WS/48, 1st team defense, etc)

Again, I have MJ #1 all time, but a lot of what you’re saying is inaccurate or at a minimum painting a picture that isn’t accurate. Such as Pippen vs Hughes.. The year Hughes came to CLE he got injured and missed two months. After that he was never the same player. His advanced stats weren’t even remotely close to an all-star level player after that. Whereas, Pippen who was younger, continued to improve and evolved into an all-star player. Pippen in 91-93 was SIGNIFICANTLY better than Hughes from 06-08. Their advanced stats respectably in those years are barely even comparable.

Calling Jaminson a far superior scorer to Pippen is also wildly inaccurate. Lebron played with him for one year where Jaminson averaged 15.8 ppg on .485 shooting from the field (not to mention an abysmal .506 from the free throw line). Pippen, in the six years the Bulls won averaged 19.35 ppg on .542 from the field.

You also do this again with Wade’s finals PPG by factoring in his first ring on the Heat. With Lebron he averaged 21, which isn’t a significant difference than Pippen’s 19. Also if you factor in percentage of overall scoring, Pippen is probably very similar considering how defensive oriented those finals were during the second three-peat.

Overall it feels like everything you’re saying has the same tune to it. A bias that pro MJ and against Lebron. You’re constantly cherry picking random stats without looking at the full picture. Just FYI, again, I think Jordan is the best ever but I’m not sure why you want to unfairly tear down Pippen or artificially inflate Lebron’s first stint CLE teammates to prove that MJ was better than Lebron. I don’t think those things matter in the argument.

All i did was ask how much we should factor in advanced stats to the GOAT conversation without trying to insinuate an argument towards or against any player. I'm not sure why your response to that was to go on a tirade trying to prove that Pippen was a trash player

Series won vs top opponents with weak scoring help (Finals opponents or top 5 SRS):

Jordan - 96' Finals, 98' Finals, 98' ECF, 89' 1st Round, 97' ECF

Lebron - none

Pippen missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF, but Jordan would've beaten the Pistons with 10 points from Pippen in that game, and that's the kind of crap he frequently getting from Pippen during the title years:

89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs..................... 15 on 40%
96' Pippen vs. #2 SRS Sonics.................. 16 on 34%
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat..................... 16 on 39%
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers.................. 17 on 39%
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz'...................... 16 on 41%

92' Pippen' vs Knicks (7-games)............. 16 on 40%
93' Pippen vs Dominique........................ 15 on 33%

96-98' Pippen entire playoffs................. 18 on 41%

^^^ Otoh, Lebron lost with 18 on 38% from Mo and better team defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls - Lebron NEVER beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while Jordan did all the time and with worse team defenses than Lebron had... TLDR: Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with worse defenses than the 09' Cavs and less offensive help.

You're completely disregarding anything Pippen did defensively.

HOF's like Bosh, Love and Westbrook cratered alongside Lebron, so naturally Jamison and Hughes did as well... So you're making my point by pointing out how Hughes cratered after joining Lebron, and Jamison as well..

Lebron's ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that prevents good fits, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding a lottery record on the championship level regardless of cast (lower team ceilings)..

This is statistical fact - Lebron lowers the assists of teammates and increases their assisted rate/play-finishing - so he literally turns teammates into spot-up shooter - these spot-up roles prevent teammate development, chemistry and strategic capacity coaching, thereby yielding a lower team ceilings (lottery record on the championship level regardless of cast)..

Indeed, the spot-up roles yield zero young player development - zero young players went from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch.. Again, Lebron's game prevents teammate development, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching...

Otoh, everyone grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ... Veterans like Woolridge, Oakley and Vincent played near career highs (capacity) alongside MJ, while rookies like Pippen, Grant and BJ grew by leaps and bounds every year.. This is because MJ was elite on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with every teammate or system, while Lebron is only elite on-ball, which imposes spot-up roles and bad fits.

Regarding Jamison, he was averaging 22/9 right before joining Lebron, but then cratered to 15/8, so he's another casualty of "bron-ball" just like Bosh, Love, Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, IT, Clarkson, Wade, and many more.

Even if AD was Hakeem on defense, 16 on 40% from AD would yield a guaranteed historic blow-out loss for Lebron.. Heck, Lebron can't win with AD getting damn-near 30 ppg and great efficiency, so imagine if he got half that on bad efficiency.

Ultimately, if a 2nd scoring option doesn't score, then they're just a defender and force the 1st option to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) - carrying the scoring load (defeating max defensive attention) is unique to MJ when considering the level that he did this compared to everyone else.. no one had to carry the scoring load like MJ... and yet MJ still played 1st team defense and averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career.

heck, we just saw luka have a historic scoring season, but what if he was DPOY too?... that was MJ, the goat.... 35/6/6 with DPOY (3.0 steals and 1.6 blocks) is goat ENERGY

What did he do exactly?... Pippen's defense was nice, but the Bulls still lacked rim protection and athletic guards, so they still had the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th), which was inferior to every ECF and Finals opponent (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks), except the 93' Suns.

There were many ways for the Bulls to have the #7 defense and inferior defenses to top opponents - they didn't need Pippen for that.. Maybe a little better rim protection or a better defensive PG would do the trick and then the Bulls could replace Pippen with a shooter and clutch assassin like Horry...

Btw, Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals when Horry averaged 18/10/3/2/3 on 50% - this was a better combination of raw stats (gamescore) than any of Pippen's Finals.. I bring this up to point out how easy it was to match or even exceed Pippen's performance.. Keep in mind that Horry had goat clutch and spacing, while Pippen lacked both.. And Horry didn't respect Pippen - listen to Horry say he would "lock up the sorry ass pippen" (here).

Not sure where you’re getting from that the Championship Bulls teams weren’t as good defensively as the Cavs teams during Lebron’s first stint in Cleveland.

Opponent ppg rating in league-

Bulls
91 - 4th
92 - 3rd
93 - 2nd
94 (Jordan retired) - 3rd
95 (Jordan Retired) - 5th
96 - 6th
97 - 1st (tie)
98 - 2nd

Average 3rd, with Jordan
Average 4th without Jordan

Cavs
04- 17th
05 - 10th
06 - 9th
07 - 5th
08 - 9th
09 - 1st
10 - 5th (tie)

Average 9th

Again, I’m team MJ, just pointing out a lot of what you’re saying is painting a picture that is inaccurate. Like for instance comparing Lebron with AD (who he won a championship with) to Jordan if he had AD. You have to compare them at similar points in their career. If Jordan had an AD caliber player on the Wizards, I highly doubt Jordan would have multiple Wizards championships. At this point in their careers Lebron is a far better player. Not necessarily an argument for GOAT status, but more so that your line of reasoning is very bias/faulty.

We can't go by ppg for defensive performance - we have to go by possessions and the Bulls were only 7th in points allowed per 100 possessions in 91' and 93' (4th in 92')..

This is worse than the 09' Cavs (3rd) and equal to the 10' Cavs who had more scoring options...

It's also worse than the 07' Cavs, which was before Lebron became an all-defensive player, so the Cavs always had more defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. Those Bulls had no rim protection and inferior rebounders compared to Lebron's Cavs - Lebron was 3rd or 4th on his team in rebounding every year from 04-10', except 09'.

Regarding Wizards Jordan and AD - we know that MJ wouldn't miss play-in like Lebron did in 2022 because Jordan would fit well with Westbrook and it would be a lethal backcourt of 100% pure competitive breed that would elevate the whole team.. Better effort in regular season translates to better chemistry development and a better team by the time the playoffs roll around..

That's Lebron's achilles heel - chemistry development - he shuns it by skipping the regular season and hoping he simply has enough supporting talent to win - this talent-based approach began with the "decision" in 2011 and this decision to win via talent and not chemistry is why all losses are blamed on not having enough help/talent.. it's intuitive.

What is this normal cast crap when Kobe was the second best player on his own team for those first 3 rings. Jokic Curry LeBron Jokic and Giannis were all the best players on their respective teams. And none of them played with anyone as as good as Shaq in his prime. Give LeBron prime Shaq year one, give Kobe Cleveland trash and see what happens.

Taking a step back here, the entire point of your argument here is trying to prove Pippen was not a very good player. Which just isn't true. He was GREAT defensively and pretty good offensively. He was the only player in the entire league who was all NBA defense from 90-98 and was also all-NBA seven times in the 90's and his PPG/FG% numbers were only matched by less than 5% of the league each year. Comparing those 6 seasons in his prime to Antoine Jaminson's one season at age 33 is laughable.

Lebron missed the play in in 2022 becasue AD missed over half the season and Lebron missed 26 games. Again, you keep arguing things that have such a faulty line of logic.

Lebron went to MIA in 2011 in large part because Cleveland never surrounded him with another current all-nba player (and I would argue zero current all-stars). So he decided to do it himself.

22 Westbrook on a max contract is one of the worst value players in league history

Also it'd be like 96 bulls but you give up Rodman and Kukoc to get him, it wouldn't have went well, so no Jordan wouldn't dominate with him unless he literally just got added to roster for free and the Phil could just bench him

WAIT -- timeout -- FallGuy, you have Kobe second all time and Lebron 11th? LOL. I don't really know what to say anymore...