This is, of course, incorrect - can you get anything right at all?

So a head coach can win 11 titles (including 6 straight seasons in which he coached at one point!) in 20 seasons by just being lucky and we should not use that as evidence of greatness, but we should use how often an individual player was part of a championship team in order to evaluate the player's career?

This still seems like a pretty good tl;dr of twog's nonsense:

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Pure comedy from the JJ Redick podcast:

JJ Redick: I watched that 09 ECF again recently and you had no chance against us.. One of the big issues was we had Jameer Nelson that could hit threes off-the-dribble - it changes everything"

Lebron: Of course... spot on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUsTBPBalTo&t=02m56s

However........... Jameer Nelson (an all-star)............ didn't play in the series..... he was hurt.

lmao... the fraud is real

So there's fake news like that, and there's the historical record that shows Orlando had the injury excuse but still won.. That's like Lebron winning the 15' Finals or the 21' 1st Round (which he should've won anyway).

Ultimately, Lebron lost the 2009 ECF as a -700 favorite because he was too ball-dominant at high scoring volume, while also having the massive choke of 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Game 4 that swung the series.. For the series overall, Lebron became a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (last 5 within 5) - it's impossible for any team to win a close game if the primary ballhandler turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time..

To top it off, Lebron had the goat defensive choke by guarding Courtney Lee instead of providing the height/agility required to defend the Magic forwards (Hedo or Lewis).. So he lost as the favorite because of this defensive blunder, coupled with his ball-dominance at high scoring level (weak brand of ball), and of course his turnover machine in the clutch.
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ok maybe tupac/biggie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8IReBA7oqA&t=01m48s

It’s funny to see pippen being def1 in 1998 with 44 game played .

Mj supported by a 36 years old rodman who can’t score , won 62 games with a record of 24-11 without pippen .
In the toughest east conference in 1998 up to this day (.579 win rates vs the west) since 1989 …

Meanwhile LeBron couldn’t make the playoff when AD miss half a season like pippen , even tho lebron had 3 HOF in Carmelo, Westbrook, Howard and not a bad Malik monk .

Yes can’t win with Westbrook and yet the clippers seem very happy to have him !
Ah yes LeBron makes everyone better ….
Ps: lakers were at +400 pre season to win it all …
Seem AD is extremely valuable just by missing half a season compare to pippen!

62 wins vs missing the playoff.
Yup small gap .

LMFAO at calling those 3 guys HOF ers at that point of their careers. Anthony was a sub replacement player, Westbrook trash at that point and Howard a solid 16 minute per game backup center.

We done with the 90’s!

I think u missing the point .
I’m not speaking about being a super team and winning a title.
First off Carmelo was doing a great job that year for what he was asked to do .
(Taking SABR words , TS% .579 and .375 from 3s)
Malik monk was fine too it seem
(TS .597 with .391 from 3s )
Howard was doing fine for what he was ask to do for the minutes he played
(TS .657 giving 6 ppg and 6 rbn as back up )
Westbrook wasn’t trash at 18/7/7 with TS .512 .
And being 3 hof they actually known how to play .
And AD is an hof too even tho he played half a year (just like pippen) .
AD had better numbers then pippen across the board .


And listen I’m speaking about not even able to make the playoffs With that squad
and the west wasn’t the tough west it was use to be at all .


Compare to mj doing 62 wins !
With what ? Rodman , Harper , kukoc , Longley ?
Rodman TS .459
Longley TS .492
Harper TS .503
Kukoc TS .525 .362 from 3s . (Carmelo was at least equal)

Don’t tell me Rodman wasn’t past hof at 36 like what LeBron had with Carmelo , Westbrook and Howard .
It’s the same thing …..and Rodman couldn’t score much .
U think when mj had the ball , players guarded Rodman ?
I guess mj had almost all the pressure from the D .
Yes kukoc wasn’t better than Carmelo ….

Half a season with pippen (like AD had with LeBron ).
Not mentioning the eastern conference was the toughest since 1989.
MJ played like a mad man all over , no wonder he was mvp, nba1,def1,dpoy4 and the only 1 of 2 players on his team to play 82 games …

Seem pippen there or not , mj did the job .

We’ve been over the 2022 Lakers numerous times. AD / Westbrook / LeBron played a total of 21 games together in which they went 11 - 10. They were 16 - 13 when AD got his first injury. AD missed 21 of their final 24 games (LeBron missed 9), where they could have potentially pulled together enough to sneak a play in spot.

But health and unavailability aside, the Lakers were a terribly constructed team in 2022. Sure, you can wonder whether the “big three” could have sorted it out over a larger sample. But - as much as they had some shooting - they lacked credible defensive rotations and continuity on offense (availability related).

LeBron averaged 30.3 / 6.2 / 8.2 on .619 true shooting playing predominantly at centre as a 37 year old…so really what the **** are you talking about? You can’t compare MJ at this age, he wasn’t playing basketball and he never played for such a poorly coached and illogically constructed roster.

This is trolling right? You couldn’t possibly be this stupid.

Like we know what Jordan would do in his late 30’s in a non perfect situation (even if it was a situation entirely of his making as GM): absolutely ****ing nothing. LeBron has managed a Conference Finals while maintaining consistent All NBA level play. Come on now, this is not the part of the debate you want to be spending time on.

Sounds like without Pippen around MJ struggled to run an efficient offense. These are all players that have been good to great in other circumstances, why can't MJ make use of these pieces well enough for them to score efficiently with MJ? Or perhaps MJ has a negative impact on his teammates' efficiency? Speaking of which, how did the Bulls do with and without Pippen that year?

With Pippen
36-8 (equivalent to 67-15)

Without Pippen
26-12 (equivalent to 56-26)

I don't know, that seems like a bigger drop-off than when MJ missed the 93-94 season, but I'm sure twog has an explanation for it.

Westbrook as a 23 minute per game bench player who takes a back seat on a team with 3 superstars still in their prime. Yes, that's about what he's good for. On the Lakers he was trying to be another number 1 option and he can't shoot at all. Now he's accepted a role more appropriate for him.

Westbrook hasn’t even been good on the Clippers - he’s basically the same player as he was on the Lakers. On the Lakers he was traded for making a max salary and expected to be the 3rd best player and all-star caliber basically. On the Clippers he’s the 6-7th most important player and makes $4 million a year. If he was on a $4 million contract and picked up off the scrap heap to play 20 mpg on the Lakers he’d have been fine too.

Go ask Alice

When she's 10 feet tall

^^^ that's completely disqualifying because MJ was 30-30 with no cast at the same age in 2002... He obviously would do amazing with a Westbrook/MJ backcourt - yikes - goat intensity and competitiveness plus great fit with MJ off-ball....... plus AD?... it's over..

But this isn't the only disqualifying thing... There's so many things in Lebron's career that are disqualifying, such as 22 on 35% vs Spurs in 2007 - this worst-ever performance is disqualifying... Ditto the 26 on 35% vs 08' Celtics... Then the historic meltdown in 2010.... All of this is disqualifying... Then his team gave up on national television mid-series in 2014 Finals - a joke - completely disqualifying... He was lottery in his prime in 2019 - disqualifying.... He lost 3 times with multiple all-star teammates - completely disqualifying.. So we don't even need to mention 2011 because we have the 07' Finals, 08' ECSF, 09' ECF, 10' ECSF, 14' Finals, and also the 2019/2021/2022 seasons - all this these are disqualifying.




right and the Heat were poorly constructed.... and so were the Cavs...

why are all his teams "poorly constructed"... why is it nearly impossible to build good fits around him?

we know the answer - his abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position imposes spot-up roles that prevents good fits and elite chemistry.

based on this hoops 101 regarding ball-domination, we know that SGA and Luka's team will both flame out in these playoffs - both teams need WAY more help to offset the crap brand of ball they play... Minnesota is more for real but the reality is that Ant lacks half-court dominance, so their team struggles in a lot of halfcourt situations.. They will also flame out despite having a better overall combination of players and less ball-dominance than OKC or Dallas.




Centers don't hold the ball for 5 minutes per game and run a bunch of high-screen rolls... only point guards do... Yes I understand that the announcer introduced Lebron as the starting center, but as soon as the tip-off happened, he returned to his normal primary ball-handler role, hence the horrific fit with Westbrook.

the question is - are YOU trolling with your delusional post?

The reality is that Lebron uses up the Lakers offense to get his stats, which is why they don't win - he really needs cookie cutter situations to score and sometimes this takes some set up time... Of course his defensive intensity rubs off on the team too - it would be night and day with a goat-level defender like MJ on Lebron's teams for the last 10 years (the years Lebron wasn't all-defense).

We know that MJ had alien energy because he shot 54% despite playing the best defense in the league and averaging 35/6/6 with 3.0 steals and 1.6 blocks)..... and still shot 54% against max defensive attention (carrying scoring load)... no tired legs - infinite energy - goat energy

complete BS

Longley was a bench player on an expansion team before 3-peating with MJ and then averaged 6/5 on 46% after MJ

So when was he ever "good to great" like you said??... it's just a blatant lie... more Klutch Sports propaganda

Similarly, BJ Armstrong was quickly relegated to a bench player on an expansion team after 3-peating with MJ, while Harper averaged 7.0 on 48 TS in 1995 before MJ returned.

So you're just telling blatant lies.. And Pippen wasn't good after he left MJ either - Houston hated him and couldn't wait to get rid of him, while he was 8th option on Portland and had historic choke - he couldn't make the Finals without MJ even with a 17 point lead in the 4th of Game 7.. You can't make this stuff up.

So wtf are you talking about by saying "all these guys were good to great in other circumstances" - they were all literally trash without MJ... Kukoc averaged 18 on 49% true shooting in 1999 for a 13-win team, and then nothing after that - is that "good" and is that a good "peak", because that was Kukoc's peak.




Longley's career TS is 50%

Harper's career TS is 51%

Kukoc's career TS is 53%

These are in line with their performance in 1998 - MJ simply played with a bunch of bricklayers and lane-cloggers - Kerr and MJ were the only good jumpshooters on the team (kukoc was incredibly streaky).

Rodman averaged 3/8 on 42 TS for the entire 97' Playoffs and this poor rebounding performance caused MJ to co-lead the rebounds with Rodman for the 97' Playoffs - both averaged 8 RPG, except MJ also led the assists and carried the scoring load at goat levels and also played goat defense (the biggest load ever).

I believe MJ is the GOAT but Pippen slander is unwarranted. Jordan was one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all-time, but was the second- best on his championship teams. The last three, Jordan was the third-best defender on his own team.

LeBron has played with better scorers, but where Jordan's supporting cast contributed most to wins was on defense.

Are we trying say these are bad numbers? Hmm let's see:

MJ TS% in 94-95: .493 (with the short 3-point line, wow)
MJ TS% in 01-02: .468
MJ TS% in 02-03: .491

Is anyone saying that MJ is better when super-old than LeBron?

please enlighten me .
What years longley , kukoc , Ron Harper you consider they were “ great players “ ?

Yeah you right Michael could have been more efficient because being scoring champ , mvp , nba1 , def1 winning a title and mvp final while missing his number 2 for half season isnt enough and great ?
Yes mj should have been more efficient to achieve what more exactly ?
Ah yes winning isn’t important , whats important is efficiency and padding the stats -> no wonder u love Lebron , winning is secondary ….

Ps: and again that was the east has its strongest ….

Yup it shows me in 1997 with only 17 games he was rusty and like in his first year return in the 2002 he was VERY rusty but was doing pretty well after 46 games , him and his team , before the injury shrug .
That team mj had in 2000s was incredibly bad compared to what LeBron had and yet couldn’t make the playoffs either …
Both injured , and their number 2 were injured too but instead of having Carmelo, Howard, monk or Westbrook …
Mj for a number 3 had a freakn Chris Whitney !
Yeah I know who t f is that ..

2021-2022 Lakers top 5:

LeBron 7.7 BPM, 5.1 VORP
AD 3.8 BPM, 2 VORP (40 GP)
Monk -0.5 BPM, 0.8 VORP
Melo -0.5 BPM, 0.7 VORP
Dwight -0.2 BPM, 0.4 VORP (971 mins)

2001-2002 Wizards top 5:

MJ 3.1 BPM, 2.7 VORP
Whitney 1.5 BPM, 2 VORP
Laettner 0.5 BPM, 0.9 VORP
Hamilton -0.9 BPM, 0.6 VORP
Nesby -0.8 BPM, 0.4 VORP

So LeBron was significantly better than MJ and also had worse help especially considering injuries.

Trying to argue wizards MJ is anywhere even close to late years Lebron is hilarious. Late years Lebron is an all NBA level player and probably top 5-8 for a playoff series. MJ had one year as a solid starter level player then a decent role player. That’s after taking a bunch of years off and having way less miles. It’s not close.

Disqualifying compared to what? MJ didn't finish out the season, he was the GM who built the team, he was playing for the minimum opening up lots of cap flexibility to sign guys around him, it was his chosen coach, and they didn't come near the playoffs in the end. And MJ himself was hugely inefficient, just chucking up tons of shots.

In 2022 LeBron and AD managed a total of 96 games between them, and Westbrook is now a non starter who earns $4m a year who was on the buyout market in 2023.

There's nothing "disqualifying" around 2022.

Jordan never got his equivalent teams of the 2007 Cavs to the Finals. And he never played a team in the finals near as good as the 2007 or 2014 Spurs. They were just awesome basketball teams.

The 2007 Cavs are universally understood as one of the worst teams ever to make the finals. You are the only person I've ever seen trying to talk up the average NBA starters and sub replacement level rotations on that roster.

Then in 2014, the Spurs were awesome and Wade was done.

Again, "disqualifying" compared to what? These are entirely incomparable situations.


The 2022 Lakers were objectively horrendously constructed. Again, nobody other than you disputes this. Westbrook was a terrible addition as a third "star" around LBJ / AD. Their lack of health mitigated against this team doing a huge amount anyway, but Westbrook's time as a high usage top 15 player was over. Again, this is not a matter of debate, based on him being on the buyout market the following year and earning a relative pittance as a depth player now.

Like this is a key aspect of the entire debate as far as I am concerned. Wade and Bosh did nothing after LeBron; Love did nothing after LeBron; Kyrie didn't prove to be the no.1 option he felt he was; Ingram, Caruso et al from the 2019 Lakers have all proven to be decent NBA starters at best; and Westbrick is a decent depth player. The 2014 Heat and 2018 Cavs were at the end of the road. They could not be fixed, and there's no way to say in hindsight that those teams should have been expected to beat those magnificent Spurs / Warriors teams. And all of these teams had horrendous cumulative records without LeBron on the floor.

Meanwhile, the 1994 Bulls without Jordan (playing a sub replacement level player in his stead) remained 6th in defense, won 57 games and lost a close second round series. And post Jordan, Phil Jackson proved himself the GOAT coach and Pippen led a Blazers team to a 7 game conference title loss to Jackson's Lakers.


The continued tone of your posts remains ridiculous - LeBron has won 4 titles and gone to 10 finals, including 8 finals in a row. That requires good fits, good chemistry and great teams. The 2011 finals is the one that got away (losing a finals as favourite). The rest of the years have their explanations, whether it be teams being outmatched or injuries - but he never lost another finals as a series favourite.

More "the passion of the Mike" bollocks. Luka and SGA's teams (and Ant's) will likely flame out in these playoffs because Denver may be one of the better all time teams, and Boston have had a ridiculous net rating all year, including a 10+ net rating with Tatum off the court.

It's not 1 or 0, there is an ocean of nuance that explains the difference between championship seasons, playoff seasons where you eventually lose a series, and seasons where you can't hit .500


I'm sure Jokic doesn't play Centre like your narrow prism understands, because he certainly doesn't play it like people understood the position in the 90s. But like it or lump it, LeBron's positional allocation is the record and assigned using the same rules that apply to every basketball player season.

"They don't win", except the season they did win, and excepting last year's great underdog run to the Conference Finals.

And as others have said, the biggest determiner of the Bull's great defense was coaching and stuffing the roster with great defenders, as per them being a great defensive team during Jordan's first retirement.

You remain full of ****.

As far as the Wizards years are concerned, I continually see the MJ side ignore the fact that HE WAS THE ****ING GM WHO BUILT THE TEAM (along with adding himself on a min contract). It's all fun and games criticising "LeGM", but Jordan literally WAS the GM.

I suppose it proved a preview for owning a team for 13 years, going 423 - 600 and never winning a playoff series. Jordan, the great winner, one of a kind: who did all of his winning under the greatest basketball coach to ever walk the earth. Just a coincidence I'm sure.