You claim to have played college basketball and think Lebron's job on defense is just to guard the other team's small forward? I mean even 12U doesn't work that way.

He gives Jordan credit for all the **** that Pippen did to let him get away gambling for steals to get dopy votes, and downplays Lebron's playoff defense versatility

Let me know the difference between a Game 7 in a 7 game series and a Game 5 in a 5 game series.

There is none.

Both MJ and LeBron have been clutch as **** across their careers.

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List of players that MJ and Lebron faced


1) SHAQ

Top Lebron moments:

* 2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left and Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting during those years, and lost the conference to him as well (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.


Top Jordan moments:

* Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here.

2. KOBE:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.


Top Jordan moments:

- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here).

3. DUNCAN

[Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him


Top Jordan moments:

- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here)... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).

4. GARNETT:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron got his **** pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF


Top Jordan moments:

- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here) and during the regular season (shown here, hereand here).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here

5. SHAWN MARION:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.


Top Jordan moments:

- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here).

6. 2003-2004 seasons

2003 JORDAN..... 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
2004 LEBRON..... 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg
.

^^^ The previous post confirms that David West is lying when he says that Lebron is better due to the 90's being ancient and outdated - that argument actually applies to Bill Russell, who didn't play against any of the same guys that Jordan did, whereas Jordan played against most of the same players that Lebron did.. i.e. in 1998, Jordan was MVP over all-stars like Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, and Kidd, who all destroyed Lebron in various series.. So Jordan faced many of the best players that Lebron ever faced and did better against them than Lebron did.

So West's argument is wrong and actually applies to Russell and the ancient 60's (totally different player pool)

Lebron isn't clutch compared to MJ based on his many historic chokes such as 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of critical Game 4 that swung the 2009 ECF, while also losing 3 fourth quarter leads in that series and getting upset by an injured, 1-star team.. It's impossible to win a close series if the star turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (last 5 within 5)..

In addition to this 2009 choke, Lebron had a historic meltdown in the 2010 ECSF as the favorite (21 on 34% for the last 3 games) and the goat choke in 2011.

In addition to these chokes, Lebron shoots much worse in clutch time (last 5 within 5) despite lower clutch burden/attempts, while also shooting horrifically on game-winners in the playoffs compared to Jordan, and never hitting a game-winner in the Finals (0-10).. Lebron has never even scored on the last possession of a 1-possession game in the Finals.

So don't compare Lebron's clutch ability to Jordan's - it doesn't compare - Lebron actually needs "closer" teammates that can match him in scoring for entire playoff runs like Wade, Kyrie or AD and dominate or "close" games for him.

First of all, who cares about defensive versatility if it's bad defense and the defense isn't elite - Lebron hasn't been an elite defender in his 30's (no all-defense in his 30's).. So who cares about a bad defender that is supposedly "versatile".. This doesn't compare to a DPOY-level defender like Hakeem or MJ that isn't as "versatile" (even though they both are anyway).. It's more valuable for jordan to lock up 3 positions than for Lebron to play bad defense on 5.

Furthermore, it's a massive exaggeration because candybar said that Lebron can "lock up" opposing bigs, which is a lie.. .Any decently-skilled big views Lebron as a "mouse-in-the-house" and everyone collectively 'gasps' if Lebron is caught on an island against Duncan, Dirk, or Jokic (which is why he never guarded them).

I distinctly remember Lebron getting destroyed in Game 1 of ECF against the Pacers when Spolestra dared to put Lebron on David West.. West ragdolled Lebron, which forced Spolestra to change the whole defensive game plan for the rest of the series.. And who cares about Lebron playing defense on bigs that are already crappy and low-producers - he simply can't guard decent bigs - it's viewed as a mismatch and iso opportunity for the big.

Ultimately, none of this matters because MJ's tireless effort and relentless mentality made him a better defensive leader that commanded respect and maximum effort from teammates.. So it's night and day - Jordan's defensive impact was far superior on many levels.

I don't recall saying that, but either way, you literally have a 9-year old's view of how defense works in basketball. The point isn't that Lebron can specifically guard certain bigs 1:1 (though he's pretty good at this, it simply hasn't been a particularly important role for most of Lebron's career) but that Lebron can play a variety of roles on defense at a high level and practically every role at a reasonable level, which both improves the defensive performance of any Lebron lineup and also allows his teams a ton of roster/lineup flexibility. You literally don't even seem to know what different defensive roles are and how important each one is relative to one another, despite claiming to have played college basketball, which says a ton about your general cognitive skills.

Twog, you never answered this so I'm guessing this is also somewhat embarrassing for you or you literally do not understand any of this, which ironically might explain why you didn't get much playing time and your PPG was low. I'm guessing you were basically a dumbass version of this:

Well except you probably weren't staying in front of your man either.

Garnett is historically overrated.

Kmart levels of bitchery but with a less appealing personality

Actually, my basketball lineage is elite, beginning in high school with the late, great Bill Green and continuing in college with Jim Molinari and the late, great "Shakey" Rodriquez

So you don't think I know about defensive positioning? I played in Green's matchup zone that won 6 titles

So I'm team Lebron in this "fight" but it is mental that he would show up to a Lakers game in a Liverpool shirt

lol I’m off by 25% ?
Yes if u think my original quick approximation = 100% of all game played by lebron lol which obviously isn’t but only on game miss total shrug .
Man …..

The reality is instead of missing 20% it’s 16% of games miss from 2012 by Lebron and that is 4% on a real 100% real basis of all game played …not 25% !
And I did that because I knew the little difference wouldn’t be that much important with so many seasons into the equation .
But ok even if I said it before I was off by a little .
If that makes u happy but in the end it doesn’t a change a damn thing on the argument


Anyway moving on …
And thx for the constant insult while I didn’t once .
I see u and candy bar are great partners .

U want real talk and yet can’t accept the fact that Lebron at the age of mj retirement missed a ton of games and keep trying to derail that fact .

The main point is mj would easily achieve all nba past 35 if he had so much rest in regular season too (by missing 26% of games !)
Just look at his return where he played much older while injured on top of that ….
That’s facts !

What's 20 divided by 16?

Do we need to go back to 2nd grade math?

You cherry picked arbitrary cut-off points to try to make your point and still failed miserably because your numbers were way off (3 shortened seasons + the current partial season).

For his entire career, LeBron has actually played in 1759 games, out of a possible 1950.

Do the math on that, it's actually 90%.

What was your point again? That he misses 20% of games? You wanna try again?

Doesn’t matter if he sucked at it or not !
The point is he was not on vacation like u claim , he worked very hard and everyone that played with him said so …..

Ps: coaches said taking into consideration that mj didn’t play that much baseball but seeing what he did in such few time in baseball and his work ethic , many said he would of probably reached the mlb …

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/j...ached-mlb/amp/

Just stop denigrating a 1 per generation athlete on stupid narrative .
Mj wasn’t on vacation…

Again is the games miss by LeBron is an entire representation of his games to equate 100% ?

In poker having a backdoor flush draw can increase a 3 out hand from the flop by 25% compare to a hand with 3 outs without a backdoor flush draw .
Those that mean my hand with a backdoor flush draw has 25% more equity on the flop as a whole ?
No it got 4% more equity ….
But its ok , keep pounding on a useless points .
It’s ok ….


Regardless, I’m focusing from the age of retirement of mj age…

Trying to argue that 20% of a metric isn't 25% more than 16% of that metric is real next level stuff.

Yeah in poker if you had 16% equity and then you have 20% your equity did increase by 4% in absolute terms, 25% more relative to what you had before.

4% as an increase over 16% is 25%, congrats, now you're getting it.

That's your margin of error.

^^^ History shows that Lebron isn't clutch compared to Jordan and is infact a massive choker compared to Jordan

History shows that you're full of ****.

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2009 MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...,,.. #3 team defense
1990 PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48..... #19 team defense

^^^ 09' Cavs were superior on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls

So people act like the early Cavs teams were bad but they were far better than the early Bulls teams.. Lebron had 3 years to develop a high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06' - this pads his early playoff record compared to MJ, who was thrown into the playoffs right away as an 8 seed vs dynasties.. It would be like Lebron's 05' Cavs facing the 17' Warriors.. MJ's first playoff teams had no cast, while Lebron's first playoff team was a Year 3 team that had the East all-star center, while also acquiring a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender.

Giannis, Jokic, Curry, MJ, and Lebron all had organic juggernauts by Year 7 without much all-star help - the difference is that Lebron gave up on the organic learning curve after Year 7 and teamed up with opposing franchise players thereafter (all-star team strategy).. He never learned to win via chemistry, so he always needs more help.. He never learned how to mitigate his flaws (ball-dominance) and still develop great chemistry, whereas MJ learned how to have great chemistry despite his perceived flaws/high volume.. MJ learned how to have great chemistry and win with chemistry, thereby needing less help.. Accordingly, he's superior at basketball than Lebron, whose skillset and ability needs more help and still can't reach the team caliber that MJ did despite having more help.

More copy paste.

You're the one that claims Lebron plays 5 positions when he can't fit with Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, IT or other ball-handlers the way big men or PF's do, and of course he can't run off-screens or guard guys off screens like Klay, so he can't play or defend the off-guard (2 guard).

You're the one that claims Lebron "carries" weak help and bed-wetting teammates but he never beat a top 5 SRS or Finals team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades - he never carried bed-wetting teammates over top teams)

You're the one that claims Lebron is "clutch" except he has more historic chokes than anyone in history - this includes losing as one of the 10 biggest favorites to ever lose a playoff series (09' ECF), or the 2010 meltdown or 2011 goat choke.. He shoots 37% on the last possession of 1-possession games in the playoffs and 0% in the Finals - the massive gap between his normal efficiency and clutch efficiency confirms his massive choke factor.

You're the one that claims Lebron has "genius IQ" except he has a massive track record of bad fits with many teammates or many teammates playing far below capacity alongside him (far below career highs), and zero young player development in 20 years (zero low-producing rookies grew into meaningful producers alongside him) - he can't play off teammates and the resulting ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. He also has a massive trend of getting upset or blown away by superior brands of ball such as the 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals, 17' Finals, or 23' WCF - that's 5 upsets or blowouts by superior brands of ball.. So he's just a simpleton ball-dominator and you mistake this for "genius".

You're the one that claims that Lebron deserves respect for 8 straight Finals except history shows that this streak didn't begin until he took the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team (the "decision").. History also shows that Kryie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was the only perennial all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight)

You're the one who claims LeBron is worse than Durant. No one needs to take anything you write seriously.