Come on man???

McMuffin is not coming on anything.

So u believe MJ failed in the 80s having a weaker team then LeBron Miami (by far !) while failing vs better team too (Celtics/pistons ) then what LeBron had to face In Miami ?
How u call LeBron performance ?
A major bust ?

Ah yes…..



he really believes it , like being the Goat .

Then you have no eyes because the exact opposite was the truth

You're the only person in the world that thinks that - everyone else knows that there's no hangtime like Michael's - it's one of the more settled issues in hoops

Don't waste your time with a runner like McLoving - once you destroy his band-camp, small brain arguments, he will run away or play the deflection "i'm above this" game

Lebron fans downplay Jordan's superior win rates by essentially saying "small sample size", aka he had the "perfect" situation, but how do they explain the superior win rates of Curry, Duncan, Kobe, Bird or Magic?.. The sample size argument no longer works here, which means they're left with the fact that Lebron isn't as good at winning basketball games as MANY other guys, which means he's nowhere near GOAT

And btw, Jordan's "perfect" situation forced him to be the only player in history to win titles while leading the league in usage.. i.e. brand of ball normally declines when 1 player is carrying such a big burden, so only Jordan was good enough to play championship basketball while carrying the league's biggest burden.. Another thing about Jordan's "perfect" situation - Jordan is the only top 10 candidate that only had 1 all-star teammate, while everyone else had MANY all-star teammates.. And everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led his team by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES, while being 1st team defense.. wow, what a perfect situation... otoh, Lebron wasn't required to be a good defender in his 30's (no all-defense in his 30's) and had 3 sidekicks match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs.

I hope that isn't serious.

Lebron faced the Warriors in his 13th season with a super-team, while MJ was in his 3rd season with a lottery cast against the 88' or 89' Pistons:

1988 Jordan......... 3rd season......... lottery cast
2016 Lebron........ 13th season....... super-team

* 3rd healthy season

Jordan would've 3-peated with an all-star center teammate, HOF coach and this acquisition:

05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.... No All-D

So Lebron's casts from 06-08' > 88-90' Bulls.. The Bulls had no coach until 1990




Lebron's 2009 cast was also superior to the 1990 Bulls on both sides of the ball:

09' Mo Williams........ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...... #3 team defense
90' Pippen.................. 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.... #19 team defense

^^^ So Lebron started with a better team on both sides of the ball, yet MJ still beat him to titles by winning the following year in 91', while Lebron kept losing as the favorite for 2 more years in 10' and 11' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite or forming a super-team.

People forget that Lebron had a Year 6 team in 2009 - any top 10 candidate should have an organic juggernaut by Year 6 and 7, which is similar to Jokic, Giannis or MJ for example.. The only difference is that Lebron gave up on his organic roster despite a 1-star organic chip being on the table in 2011 that Dirk grabbed.. Lebron's Cavs certainly would've had the organic chemistry and reputed team defense needed to beat those Mavs, which is what the Heat lacked.




^^^ the bolded is a common misperception

The league expanded by drafting existing NBA players - each team was forced to make 2 players available for the "expansion draft" - every player drafted was already an NBA player.

Ultimately, it's easier to be 1 of 2 Finals-caliber teams in a top-heavy league (2 super-teams), as opposed to being 1 of many Finals-caliber teams in a parity league (90's).. Jordan's 2-star cast that was similar to most teams in the league, while Lebron enjoyed being 1 of 2 super-teams and guaranteed trips to the Finals.




Sounds like you don't know why you have Jordan #1 and are just going along with the flow.

6/6 is the best reason because Finals record is a reflection of the team ceiling that a player yields.. The first time MJ got a single all-star, he immediately took a Warriors-like dynasty to 7 games and didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years (1990-1998), and won 6 titles in 7 years during this span..

By comparison, Lebron isn't good at winning... And even if you think Jordan's career is small sample, we can add the superior win rates of Curry, Duncan, Kobe, Bird or Magic to conclude that Lebron isn't good at winning compared to most top 10 candidates.

Specifically, he's demonstrably the worst winner of any top 10 candidate based on championship frequency, regular season records, or odds - 2 decades confirms that he's incapable of a sure thing, juggernaut or perennial favorite regardless of cast.
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Super-team = 3 franchise players on 1 team

Only Lebron's teams fulfilled the definition of super-team from 2011-2017, which is why his teams were preseason favorite from 2011-2016

Specifically, both the 2013 Heat or 2016 Cavs contained 3 franchise players compared to 1 for Curry or Duncan, so Lebron's team was preseason favorite from 2011-2016.. Again, Lebron had franchise players at sidekick and 3rd option, while Parker, Manu, Klay or Dray were never viewed or produced as franchise players..

To summarize and put into context, the fall from on-paper favorite (preseason favorite) to underdog or loser each year from 2011-2016 confirms that the initial talent advantage was more than offset by inferior brand of ball.

The biggest example of this negative-EV brand of ball was the 2014 Finals - the odds were basically even heading into the series, yet the Heat lost by record amount.. This gap doesn't represent the talent gap - it's the gap in brand of ball...

How is this not Lebron's fault?.. Aren't his teams incapable of playing like the Spurs, Warriors, or Nuggets, so he gets swept by them or record loss??.. Is this not fact or is there some season I'm missing where his team was known for having having great ball movement, high team assists or #1 offense like the Spurs, Warriors, or Nuggets?.. These offenses blow the doors off poor opponents like the 14' Heat, 91' Lakers, 17' Cavs or 23' Lakers.

The statistical and historical record shows that Lebron's skillset ties a coach's hands and forces them to put the ball in his hands, thus preventing the kind of blow-the-doors-off offenses that the dynasties run (Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls, maybe the Nuggets).. This isn't some opinion or "take" - it's literally the historical record - the best offenses and teams in history were ball movement teams run by fundamentally-sound bigs (russell, kareem, duncan, jokic) or expert jumpshooters (mj, curry, bird) - these skillsets commanded the best offenses and teams ever and they're the opposite of Lebron's skillset.
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THREAD CLIFFS


The period where both players "had help" was Lebron from 2011 to 2020 (4 chips) versus Jordan from 90-98' (6 chips, 2 three-peats, best championship record ever) and this includes 2 years off for baseball.

Despite teams with less star talent, MJ achieved this superior winning by maintaining MVP-caliber play for longer (25-35), while Lebron was MVP for a small window from 23-28.. Lebron also wasn't required to be a good defender for half his titles (no all-defense in his 30's), while MJ was 1st team defense for every title despite maintaining higher PPG and playoff APG (until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards).

Furthermore, MJ or Curry's jumpshooting style maintains ball movement and brand of ball at high scoring volumes, so they can beat top teams at high volumes and therefore win with less scoring help like Klay or Pippen.. Meanwhile, Lebron's ball-dominance needs more scoring help like AD, Wade, or Kyrie - these franchise players match or lead Lebron in scoring for entire playoff runs so Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't have to carry the scoring load and brand of ball.. Indeed, Lebron never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load for playoffs and Finals of championship run) like expert jumpshooters do, aka Jordan, Curry, Kobe, or Bird (and even Dirk did somewhat).

History confirms Lebron's need for great scoring help since he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick - he simply can't beat top teams with bed-wetting sidekicks.. This includes his loss to the #4 SRS Magic despite 18 on 38% from Mo, while MJ beat top 5 SRS teams teams with crap from Pippen all the time, while also having worse team defenses than the 09' Cavs.. People exonerate Lebron due to his 38 ppg but no team can win a tight series when their primary ball-handler turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (last 5 within 5) and chokes in the critical Game 4 OT that decided the series.. That's how the 2009 Magic became one of the 5 biggest underdogs to ever win a playoff series.. Lebron's clutch-time turnovers or efficiency, FT exploitability and inferior brand of ball (spotty jumpshooting) caused sweeps, upsets, record losses or getting locked up nearly every year of his career (04', 05', 07', 08', 09, 10', 11', 14', 17', 18', 19', 22' and 23') - that's a lot of years getting swept, upset, record loss or locked up.
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didn't read any of the last 3 fallguy posts.



Jordan is the GOAT but LeBron's longevity will chase him down if he continues to play until 43~ at a high level. I have a hunch the Warriors will trade for a 1st rounder, draft Bronny, and sign LeBron to the MLE en route to winning the 2025 NBA Championship.

ya I'm seriously doubting that.

The warriors are finished. They should probably clear out everyone. The only piece worth
keeping is Curry, but even he should go as I don't think he'll want to rebuild with a new team.

I think it would be good for Curry to go to the Spurs. He would fit nicely with Wemby and bring
all his experience. With a good draft pick they would have a nice nucleaus.

Lebron is not chasing anything down. He's declining now. Still flashes of greatness. But no way
Lebron in his prime the Lakers are around 500. I think Davis is too beatup for them also.

The most interesting team heading into the trade deadline is Philly. They have cap space and
if they can add once piece that could put them over the top. At least that's what everyone is saying.

LeMedia claims that he left Cleveland because he was never gifted a "pippen" but this is a lie because no one considers an 8 ppg baby rookie a great thing that solves all the problems, whereas Lebron was infact gifted an established, coveted 2-way player that was already achieving prime Pippen stats on both sides of the ball - the 26-year old Hughes averaged 22/5/5 and 1st team defense and clearly came into his own alongside off-guard Arenas.. Statistically, Hughes was vastly superior to 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball, while Ingram proved to be an all-star and Westbrook was a hand-picked MVP - so Lebron had plenty of "pippen's" but he simply doesn't fit with other spotty-shooting ball-handlers like himself.. His inability to fit with all player types makes him need more help and be inferior to Kobe or Jordan's superior scoring diversity that fits with everyone and yields superior teams/Finals records.. this is the historical record despite the fake stories and narratives spewed on LeMedia... Btw, it's absurd to think that Lebron would want a "pippen" since Pippen is the biggest lane-clogger in history based on the stats, (which doesn't fit with Lebron's stiff-arm), aka worst shooting splits ever for playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - twice in 96' & 98' (title runs).

Steph will never be traded by the Warriors unless he outright demands out, which I don't see him doing at this point. Maybe next year if they're clearly out of it again. But it would still surprise me.

How many times have you posted this exact paragraph, word for word, on the internet?


Thread, I'm setting the o/u at 57.

Which he will demand out if the team is awful. Unless they can rebuild somehow fast then Steph won't
want to stick around on a bad team.

At this point it's clear fallguy is a chatgpt trained bot

How many times do you think I've been told that Lebron left Cleveland because he never got his pippen? ... Way more than 57 times

This would include 1-9

This would include the times when people sing Pippen's praises and think MJ wouldn't win earlier and easier with someone else in Pippen's place...

Since I've been told "1-9" about 7,057 times by zombies under the hypnosis of Klutch Sports, I point out that the winning spotlight inflated Pippen to media accolade such as undeserved All-NBA, which he only received after he had a title just like other carried sidekicks (klay, pau, many more).

Aside from undeserved media accolade (winning spotlight), Pippen was no actual performance that demonstrates he's an all-timer - there's no seminal series where he took over or had all-timer performance.. He was always carried statistically by Jordan with low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq).. He was a transition dunker that was nothing outside a system that coddled weak iso players and that he grew up in.. I imagine Klay or Dray are similar to this.





If Pippen was drafted to another team like the 88' Lakers or Pistons, he would be buried on the bench behind many veterans and he would also be in spot-up role alongside Magic/Isiah instead of developing as a ball-handler... So he's very lucky to get minutes on a crappy Bulls team as a ball-handler, alongside a generational athlete to develop in his image.. And also a system that coddled weak iso players.. This was a once-in-a-million situation for Pippen and if he was drafted to another team, he would've ended up like his 89' or 99' version (outside the system) and basically like Horace's brother Harvey Grant that no one ever heard of but was a decent player..

Regardless the stats tell the story - every notable sidekick in the 90's was infact a "1b" - they had elite 1st option capability and dominated the conference finals to lead their team to the Finals.. Porter played better than Damian Lillard ever did in that uniform during the 92' WCF to carry the Blazers to the Finals... Ditto Stockton in the 97' WCF, or KJ in the 90', 94', and 95' Playoffs (dominating Magic and Hakeem).. Worthy averaged 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF and other series.. Even X-Man carried the 87' Sonics to the WCF and averaged 25/9/4 against the Lakers before dominating Pippen in the 92' ECSF.. Payton and Kemp took turns leading the Sonics depending on the series and dominated Pippen in the Finals.

So Pippen was "just another guy" compared to other notable sidekicks and he was the only sidekick that was more of a transition dunker - he wasn't capable of elite stats or leading a team to the conference finals or Finals.. Among notable 90's sidekicks, he had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch or peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq).

LeWholesome

LeBron never met his dad.
Jordan's gambling addiction *allegedly* got his dad killed.
LeBron won it for ****ing CLEVELAND.
Jordan QUIT to go play lol baseball and never made it anywhere CLOSE to the major leagues.

I know who's my GOAT at the end of the day.

Completely out of ****ing line.

I wonder what’s more impressive
Lebron for Cleveland or kawhi for Toronto .
Both vs the warriors …

LeBron beat a fully healthy squad.
Kawhi didn’t.

/discussion

And don’t say Draymond didn’t play G7 blah blah blah because that wasn’t due to injury. It was due to him being a hot headed moron with zero self control.

U saying raptors was a better team than Cleveland ?
Yeah well about KD missing , he wasn’t there when lebron beat the warriors anyway …..

Ps: curry was so bad when lebron beat them many suspect an injury .

Fwiw I think it was more amazing the US lost an nba title outside of the US in Toronto with only 25 years of existence then Cleveland winning with the “goat” shrug .

Hope kawhi wins with the clippers .
Supposedly winning 3 titles with 3 different team is amazing while being the final mvp too .

Allegedly* winning 3 titles etc