Nyoop.

the top three are kawhi magic, bird in that order.

These are NBA, no ABA.

Not enough games played for Kawhi in the question I posed. So I guess the answer is Magic?? Makes sense. Came right in winning titles and did he ever miss the playoffs meanwhile while going to what 9 finals?? That makes for a high winning %. Do you have the percentages for these three players and for Chamberlain and Russell?? (I'm guessing the standard used for games played is probably 500 for what you are referencing??)

When you play 1000 games in the NBA you pretty much do what you can do.

Only Chamberlain scored 100 in a game.
Only Chamberlain averaged 50 for a season (or even 40).
Only Chamberlain had 55 rebounds in a game (against Russell, of course Celtics won)
Only Chamberlain averaged 25 rebounds per game for a season (3 times)

He was the greatest scorer and rebounder in the history of the league. If blocked shots were kept officially then he seemingly certainly would be up there with Eaton, Bol, Olajuwon, Mutombo ... and maybe again #1. He averaged 4 1/2 assists per gamer career, amassing nearly 5000 including two seasons averaging around 8 (once leading his division, I believe). He was an excellent passing big man for real including those late career Lakers teams where he was kind of point center.

Most 30-30 games in league history: Chamberlain, 124. (Next Jabbar, 3. All others in league history 29, So Wilt had 4 times more than all other players history of the league.)

40-40 games: Chamberlain 8, nobody else

48.5 minutes played per game one season.

He was not a showman on the court. One memory watching him his dunks were weird in that he dunked on the way up, had already dunked very early in his leap, making it look strange. None of the hang time french pastry stuff.

He won two titles on the two record setting GOAT teams of their time. He continually lost to the team that eventually won the title otherwise, often in 7 games.

Although he's maligned for the ownership by the Celtics, Chamberlain's team was in fact the only team that beat Russell in a playoff series IN RUSSELL'S ENTIRE CAREER when Russell was on the court ... and they blew them away 4-1, almost swept them.

So ... he was much more than a stat freak "loser," as is often held against him. When you are Godzilla physically, you can't be lucky too. That's for guys like Thor and Zeus, only in fiction. So Chamberlain was unlucky.

My case for GOAT is these last two posts: CHAMBERLAIN in a landslide.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/whi...0-games-played

Yeah I found that site. Check those games played for Kawhi. And concede the Chamberlain GOAT thing, please.

You can filter by 500 or 750 or 1000.

Chamberlain won 2 titles and lost to the champion/eventual-champion 9 times.

Imagine a center getting 19 rebounds in a game and being outrebounded by his counterpart by 36 rebounds. (It happened to Russell against Chamberlain.)

Imagine going off for 40 points in a game and being outscored by another player by 60 points.

The kind of greatness of Jordan and LeBron isn't the same thing as this. They have a small but significant edge over their opponents and grind it out. Jordan leads the league in scoring with 32 or so, next guy 28 or so. Jordan or LeBron go off for 50 and its superhero stuff. Chamberlain averaged it for a year and almost for another year.

Chamberlain's thing is way beyond greatness. It's obvious, blatant, incomparable.

Now the era thing and the "(mostly) white league" thing. There's is truth to that and the comparisons need some adjustment. It can't really be said Chamberlain doesn't translate into the modern game. He was Shaq but faster and in better shape.

The case for GOAT is his teams, his team's performance, his stats. His separation over his competition is unparalleled. And it translates to the modern game. I think it's a winning case. Jordan revered Olajuwon as impossible to deal with. Wilt was way beyond that. Maybe the ultimate freak in American sports. Wilt is the 2 percenter on here .... get it fixed.

Imagine LeBron/Jordan playing against a bunch of highschoolers.

That makes my point quite well actually. Chamberlain was separated from the college and pro stars of the day as LeBron and Jordan are from high schoolers. I don't think that helps the case against him. Bill Russell wasn't a high schooler and he got 55 rebounds against him. Apparently Wilt averaged 28.7 pts and 28.7 rebounds against Russell. (I'll check on other greatest centers of the day.)

There is a dramatic "park adjustment" type thing needed for the eras concerning pace of game, possessions per game, FG% ... of course. But it's clear that Chamberlain is the GOAT statistically. This doesn't mean that he is the GOAT of course, and I have used this same argument for Jordan over LeBron. I'm sure some can offer points.

So that begs what non-statistical greatness can be claimed for Chamberlain.

1. One NCAA tourney in college carries team to FF, final game.
2. He's the centerpiece on two different record setting NBA champ teams with no other common players, 68 and 69 wins.
3. Lost to NBA champ in playoffs 9 times. (I think down to one time in career, maybe 2, that he was eliminated by somebody other than champs. Seems significant.)
4. Incredible stay on the court stats, like no one in history.
5. On only team to ever eliminate Russell in a playoff series when Russell playing
6. Building interest for the league Russell v. Chamberlain and Jabbar v. Chamberlain, ala Magic v. Bird

I'm sure there's more, that's of the top of my head. Of course there are negative points too probably. But there is a big case here that this thread just forgets.

After this study on Wilt and by proxy Jabbar, my Top 10 is the following. I think it would be cool to do some kind of Top 10 cumulative and rate them on here in a poll.

1. Chamberlain
2. Kareem
3. Jordan
4. Magic
5. Olajuwon
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Oscar
9. Durant
10. Curry

This Chamberlain study brings up a common but key question: Which do you need more to win titles, great guard or great center play? It's seem pretty obvious that it's great guard play. That throws a wrinkle into putting Chamberlain and KAJ at the top of my ratings. So the old one about having to do it by position rings true. So my tops by position:

Center: Chamberlain, KAJ, Olajuwon

Guards: Jordan, Magic, Curry, Oscar

Forwards: LeBron, Bird, Durant

1. Jordan
2. LeBron

3. Kareem
4. Magic

5. Chamberlin
6. Shaq
7. Russel
8. Bird
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

As above Chamberlin/Russel hardest to rank. Could have them 4th or 14th and I don't think you'd be wrong.

The statistical case against Chamberlain is that his highest scoring seasons did not translate into efficient team offense and winning. He won more when he learned to shoot less and get his teammates involved more.

By the time he won his second championship he played a "Bill Russell" role and barely looked to score anymore.

Russell on the other hand anchored the best defensive team in the NBA pretty much every year and that's how they won.

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Case against Chamberlin was he was a freak athlete that could tear up part time white guys when no one knew how to play basketball.

As soon as some talent started coming into the league he was still really good, but back in the field.

Jfc

Magic and bird massively overrated. Dirk>Kobe>bird

What's your top ten?

Lebron
KAJ
MJ
Bird
Magic
TD
Hakeem
KD
Russell


Russell obv hard to rate but seems wrong to leave him out of the top 10.

Russell is not in the top 500 offensive players in NBA history, and that's a problem when trying to rate him with the GOATs, imo. He fit perfectly with the team he was on, was surrounded by offensive stars, and you'll never hear me say he didn't have the strongest mind for winning. But there were plenty of players on those Celtic teams that have a ton of titles and they don't get mention in GOAT discussions because of it. Yes he was the greatest and most important Celtic of that era; no it doesn't make him a GOAT candidate.

Magic and Curry aren't in the Top 500 defensive players.

Chamberlain was still averaging 24 points per game in those years even while missing 6 or 7 FT's a game. It's hard to say this is not looking to score. It does however speak to an element Russell emphasized, saying: "I would never unbalance my team." True, obviously, Chamberlain's teams were better when surrounded by talent to play this balanced game.

Tier I: MJ, LeBron

Tier II: kareem, Durant, bird, duncan

Tier IIb: Stockton, chris Paul, (best pgs)

Tier III: Robinson, Dr j, harden, curry, O'Neal, wilt, Barkley, magic, Giannis, kawhi, drexler

Luka probably already tier III, but it's too soon.

I can buy the Wilt GOAT argument. It at least makes some sense. He’s not my GOAT, but he used to be, with MJ 2. The relative efficiency arguments, and (without seeing him play), the idea that he played sub-optimally for winning to pad his stats dropped him in my eyes. I have him top 5 with huge error bars. Could def be 1.

Couldn’t the same argument that LeBron has relatively fewer titles due to lack of teammate help (as lol as that argument is) also be applied to Wilt?