I've got prime Steve Nash as dribbling more air out of the ball than prime Chris Paul.

Yea, probably. But when you're the orchestrator of 6 of the top 11 offenses in NBA history on two different teams, under three different head coaches, I think he can dribble the ball as much as he damn well pleases.

I got Nash > Paul fwiw.

Not true. Wilt made his teammates watch him play.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1966.html

65-66 76ers

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1967.html

66-67 76ers

Wilt has the same 2-6 teammates. In 66-67 Wilt takes 800 fewer shots during the season. Wilt's teammates played a lot better in 66-67. They weren't standing around watching Wilt play. Only season Wilt beat Russell.

I think I do as well. I imagine this isn't the popular choice.

The big thing against Nash is his defense versus Paul's defense

My take on looking at the '66 Sixers against Celtics is that Wilt played fine and his teammates, who were better than Russell's during the regular season, **** the bed.

Chet Walker and Hal Greer were much, much better in the '67 playoffs. Wilt dominated Russell this year after playing him to a draw in '66 playoffs.

Well, that's the big thing against Nash against pretty much anyone. But given that his deficiencies on the defensive end don't matter as much as other positions and the fact that he's probably been the most influential player on offense maybe ever (sounds crazy, I know), Nash probably just edges out CP3.

CP3 might be the better player in a vacuum, but Nash is better to build around.

Put prime Nash on the current Bulls in lieu of DROSE and collect rings.

Dat PHX training staff tho

Did it in Dallas too tho

Younger. Fresher back.

It wasn't just the training staff. Nash did an inordinate amount of physical training on his own c. 2005 to develop his crazy effective style.

i had this happen the other day as well. first time its happened in my 2p2ing career. i think it has to do with the first/last post of a page getting deleted or something.

Clear your cache when that happens

Is this Nash/Paul thing really a serious discussion? Top 3 years for each:

Nash
2004/2005: 22.0 PER, +4.8 RAPM
2005/2006: 23.3 PER, +5.3 RAPM
2006/2007: 23.8 PER, +6.0 RAPM

Paul
2007/2008: 28.3 PER, +6.0 RAPM
2008/2009: 30.0 PER, +9.0 RAPM
2011/2012: 27.0 PER, +7.8 RAPM

I think if Nash was really doing something to make his teams better beyond what CP3 does, it would probably show up in the RAPM somewhere.

nash did lead some of the great Os of all time but then again, his surroundings were significantly better than cp3's on O.

You would think.

But isn't RAPM team-dependent?

I remember games that Nash sat out the team went completely to ****.

Those teams were good because he made them good.

This.

Listening to Wilt's interviews, he wasn't happy that he had to relinquish his scoring chances to players that "could barely get 5 points a quarter", but being the self proclaimed selfless player that he was, he sacrificed for them because the coach said so.

One of the greatest talents the NBA has ever seen, if he had a teammate development mentality like Bird / LeBron / Russell / Magic and won 5-6 rings, he'd be right up there with Jordan. But alas, mentality is everything.

confused how you know which players are good at developing teammates. like magic was given KAJ and then later gifted the #1 pick in worthy. did he really develop those players? seems like that's very results oriented for their success is due to their ability, when it could easily be skill of the player, leadership ability of the coach or other players on the team.

bird had cornbread, parrish who was a good player in golden state.

I really liked his next year when he decided he was so into it he was just gonna try to lead the league in assists for some reason. Shot like 40% from the line. Heart of a champion, Wilt.

Yeah that was no choke, Pistons were a lot better. I wonder how many titles that group could've won with Carmelo Anthony. They almost certainly win in 2004-2005, and 2005-2006 where they lost to the Heat in the ECF as the #1 seed with Melo increases their equity that season. I mean the ideal scenario was them taking Wade that draft but that was never on the table - if they do I think it is almost always 3 peat. Those Piston teams were absurdly good.

LeBron GOAT talk as in when it stops being ridiculous to declare him as such would be in play if he wins the next 2 ships and another league MVP or two. I think iggy said this earlier, that's right. To this point in their careers LBJ>MJ. If MJ never retired he could've set the bar almost impossibly high but as people have been saying that isn't a point in his favor.

When a dude openly confesses 25 years later how disgruntled he was giving up scoring opportunities to "players that can barely score 5 points a quarter", I know that dude isn't trying to make teammates better as a #1 priority. A lot of his early years were also due to coaching so Wilt doesn't get all the blame.

Look at LeBron James, he's trying to get guys that can barely get 5 points a game to go off, every single game.

I believe Wilt only "got it" in 67 when his FG% jumped 14% because he threw away all the bad shots which in turn gives more shots to everyone else.

If Wilt was born in today's era with the knowledge about basketball built over the years (wilt pretty much played in the dark ages with nobody to model his game after), I truly think he'd be the greatest to ever play the game.