Well isn’t normal that accomplishment is harder to do because you actually did it compare to :
«* yes i could of done it but «*insert excuses*» I didn’t .

Some people think beating a weak conference is the same as beating the entire league.
Nothing we can do against this , even arguing .
Not winning is the same as winning .
Losing vs a weaker team is the same has winning vs weaker team .
Shrug

Needing Pippen to win > not needing Pippen to win

Worse than that, after winning 5 straight titles everybody was wondering who the next great player was going to be. Talk formed around some kid from San Diego, a center.

"Ok, but how does he compare to Alcindor?"

"Better".

We'll leave that to historical analysis, but needless to say Bill Walton dominated college basketball as much as any player ever.

meaning ?
pippen is better than dwade,bosh, by himself ?

and who build pippen ?
you really think pippen would of been as good if he would of join another team ?
certainly practicing with the goat should not help you as a player, clearly...
But L James need to go to join super teams, much easier than actually doing the work.

LeBron didn't have expert GM Jerry Krause building a powerhouse in Cleveland for him like Jordan had in Chicago.

Plus Jordan almost went and joined the Knicks at one point in the 90s to team up with his good friend PATRICK EWING.

I got '17 Warriors > Dream Team I.

Yeah now we’re at a point where Jordan couldn’t win with Krause now ....
And thx especially to him for breaking a dynasty more than anything.

The thread keeps getting and better .

Well yea, all the Dream Team dudes are like 60 now :P

I'm not sure how you could call Magic unathletic. He was called Magic for a reason. Running the fast break, insane passing skills and a variety of scoring skills (driving for dunks & finger rolls, posting up for drives & baby sky hooks, outside shooting, free throws), and while not the world's greatest defender, he was incredibly versatile (guarded Darryl Dawkins & Roy Tarpley, who were both 6'11", in the playoffs). I mean, his rookie year when he should have been a college junior, he had 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals in the NBA Finals clincher (without Kareem), while playing guard, forward, and center at different times during the game. Somehow that doesn't seem unathletic to me. He was also known as an incredibly clutch player, who didn't shy away from potential game-winning shots, but rather often made seemingly impossible shots from near half court to win games.

NCAA outlawed dunking free throws due to Wilt. Apparently the only verified time he did so was during a college scrimmage. Started about 3 steps back from the top of the key, then dunked it from free throw line.

My starting five would have to include Wilt & Jordan... probably Magic & Lebron... not sure about the other spot, but it's really tempting to have Kareem as the other half of a twin towers. I mean, how would you guard both Wilt's raw athleticism and Kareem's sky hook from the post, nevermind all the other offensive skill? Then you have to contend with the twin towers on defense, where Wilt could block damn near anything and Jordan could pick your pocket, which would lead to a fast break with Magic running the show, hopefully with at least two of Wilt/Jordan/Lebron on the wings. And yes, Wilt could keep up on the fast break, he was a goddamned freak.

Cool, he was a poor defender against point guards bc he wasn't that athletic comparatively.

Want to stick him at the 4? I agree. That's his position. You really going to argue he's not unathletic compared to his new versions in Bron and Ben Simmons?

Obviously he's athletic against the donks of the early 80s.

He's fit Boris Diaw otherwise.

If you think me saying Magic doesn't belong on the top 5 starting lineup of all time is a slight then you're just prone to hyperbole.

It’s all about point of reference .
Are you saying LeBron is average to say magic is non athletic compared to him ?
Seems the range of athleticism could be a bit wider .

Wilt would still be a dominant player. He was a genuine physical outlier. Taller than Shaq, probably stronger too, certainly more mobile. He was a bigger, more athletic version of David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon. We'll never know if in fact he'd still be in the goat conversation, but he was as athletic as anyone playing now.

No, I don't think it's a slight that he isn't in your (or anyone's) starting 5, it's certainly very debatable. But I think it's a bit inaccurate to say that a guy who was known for triple doubles and mind-boggling passes while running perhaps the greatest fast break ever... and could drive, post up, and shoot 3 pointers, while primarily point guard (but also able to guard PFs and small centers) is unathletic, even relative to today's NBA players.

The notion that either Magic or Bird was unathletic is just stupid.

First, hand eye coordination and court vision etc. are part of athleticism.

Both had tremendous balance. Both were very strong.

Both were more athletic than someone like Steph.

Some awful takes from Baca. Court vision part of athleticism? Jokic world class athlete then.

You don't need elite speed to run the fast break. You need elite court vision and decision making, which Magic obviously had.

Posting up doesn't require athleticism besides some strength to hold position.

Shooting 3's obviously does not require athleticism, and where do you get the idea that Magic could shoot 3's? I mean, he could shoot them the same way Russell Westbrook can shoot them, which is poorly.

I don't think Magic was unathletic, but he did not possess elite athleticism for a guard. Bird was fairly unathletic though. I'd bet that besides an old Walton, Bird was usually the slowest guy on his team.

I mean this isn't rocket science. Athleticism = speed, agility, vertical, strength, and maybe stamina.

Everything else falls under "skill."

Yeah that's about right.

Right, I thought I also made clear I was saying he was unathletic compared to the other options on a starting GOAT team.

No, he obviously was a bit athletic. Lol c'mon.

Bird was faster than McHale I'd assume.

Fair enough .
But don’t call out Ben Simmons name in there if you speak about GOAT team ...
That’s where people got confuse imo.

So confusing!

Give me Ben Simmons over Magic as my starting 4 tomorrow fwiw. The conversation isn't about who's more accomplished, but literally if peak Magic and peak Ben Simmons were available to me exactly as they are: there's no debate.

So Ben Simmons is like in the top 10-15 on GOAT list for you and already better than all the 80-90 and 2000 , probably guys like the big O as well ?
Lol ok ...

Dodger you're a great poster but some of your takes itt have been pretty questionable. I the CP3 as the GOAT PG is one of the worst simply because hes just not a natural point guard in general and is a ball stopper. He is one of the worst I've ever seen, of any position, when it comes to continuing movement on offense which is detrimental to a team. I'd say him trying to be alpha on those talented clippers teams might have been a big reason why they struggled to get past the 2nd round. Hes a great player, dont get me wrong, but he is not a top player of GOAT consideration.

You said youd reconsider Stockton after looking at his steals numbers, that's the dude you want leading a good team. The thunder this year are a good example of why CP3 is a great player, but the clippers hitting a low ceiling is a great example of why hes not the GOAT PG.

I think Durant gets underrated on all these lists. Hes shown he can fit into all star casts and be very efficient as well as dominate. Hes better than dirk/KG at any of their primes. KG was a better rebounder and slightly better defender but not enough to make up for Durant's versatility and outside shooting.

Dream team might have to be adjusted a bit as that team had some "old timers" on it. Bird was done, magic was done, laettner didnt belong. But if they threw a couple of the leagues top 3 point shooters on there they D up that warriors team and beat them in a 7 game series no doubt. They'd crush them inside.

I cant believe you've never been to a game man! It's the greatest experience. You better go next year, make it a priority!

Oh and jokic maybe > shaq LOL