Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jameer Nelson were much better than Mo Williams and the corpses of Ben Wallace and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. All 3 of those Magic players were great 3-point shooters as well.

"Much better"? No. Literally no.

Mo Williams was an all-star that year. His BPM and VORP beat everyone on that list except Rashard Lewis.

Terkoglu was ok. About equal to Delonte West, statistically, that year.

Jameer Nelson didn't even play in that series lol.

Yeah that Magic team was LOADED bro, LOADED. And MJ's team only beat SCRUBS like SHAQ and MALONE and MAGIC JOHNSON. LeBron GOAT for real.

LeStan analyticz in action folks.

Nash was better than Stockton.

That Magic team ran hotter than the sun. It was insane. LeBron played redic that serious.

Jordan just didn't face the same type of competition. And obv he never saw a team near as good as the pre Durant Woyas. Lol at him even touching that team with Durant. That's the real variance.

The only knock on LeBron is that he legit choked against the Mavs. Jordan wins that series. Ofc he never beats the Spurs or Warriors.

Yeah bro. Hotter than the SUN. Magic regular season shooting % .452/.381 (FG/3P) that year. In that series, .482/.408. THREE PERCENT BETTER BRO. BLINDED BY THE SUN.

That they won in 6 game then got trounced in the finals in 5 by a **** Lakers team makes perfect sense. I can see why LeBron couldn't handle that Magic Hedo Terkoglu fire.

Yep. Definitely never beat the Magic led Lakers. The Drexler led Trailblazers. The Barkley led Suns. The Payton/Kemp led Sonics. The Stockton/Malone led Jazz (twice). Yep Jordan only beat scrubs.

Jordan would have torched that pre Durant Woyas team given they were down 1-3 against OKC the previous round, Curry was hobbled, and Draymond Green missed a game.

I mean as long as you're just pulling stuff out of your ass why don't you just say Jordan would never have won a playoff series with the Heat and Kurt Rambis is the GOAT?

The impossible odds LeBron overcame vs. the Spurs and Woyas. The games that Jordan, with his 6 rings, could not have possibly won:

2014 preseason championship odds:
LeBron and the Heat +200
37 year old Duncan / 36 year old Manu Spurs +1200

2016 preseason championship odds:
LeBron with Kyrie/Love and the Cavs +280
Woyas +480


LaBrON GoAT UNpOSSIBLE Oddds. 38 year old Jason Kidd on the case (let me guess MJ couldn't have handled 38 year old Kidd either; prime Jason Kidd yes but not 38 year old Jason Kidd because the game has evolved too much in 5 years).

Why are you using preseason odds again?

Because it gives us a great idea of what the talent levels were on these "terrible" teams.

Or do you think terrible teams are routinely rated as the favorites to title in, for example, 2014-15 and 2015-16, as the Cavs were? Before you answer, keep in mind they were favored two seasons in a row. How bad do you think they were, exactly?

What about in 2009-10 (with one of LeBron's "ultra-terrible" pre-Miami Cleveland teams), when they were +300 to title, second only to the Lakers? Totally awful still? Or do you think this "LeBron dragging scrubs to the playoffs" narrative may be a bit overblown?

Any chance that maybe LeStans are underrating LeBron's supporting casts a teensy bit because he's their favorite player? No judgements, if so. Promise.

LeBron is not my favorite player, I'm just pro-LeBron in this debate because he is the most disrespected and unappreciated superstar of our time, and maybe of all-time, because no other player is held to the same standard that he is. He is at worst, a top-2 player of all-time, yet a large contingent of casual basketball fans, and even the mainstream media thinks Kobe Bryant or Larry Bird are better than him, because somehow LeBron lacks a "clutch gene," or "chokes" in big moments or some such nonsense.

Woah, it's not my fault that Pippen was better in his 3rd year than Worthy and brutally outclassed him in years 9-11 (all championship years for the Bulls). Like I said, Worthy was a good glue guy! But yeah, MJ would have fewer rings if he had played with Worthy instead of Pippen. Nothing we can do about that.


Lebron shot 75% in the last 5 minutes of the game 1 loss (to finish with 49 points on 20-30 shooting), hit a game winner three at the buzzer in game 2, and game 3 was not a 1-possession game, as the Cavs lost by 10. I appreciate you making my point for me here regarding this series!



Trust me, I was just as surprised as you to find out that Zydrunas and Hughes entire careers are less valuable than Pippen's 2nd season. I'm sure they're both good at something though! They're certainly better than me at basketball, so they have that going for them.

OK, fair enough. But the pro-LeBron "best player ever. MJ wouldn't even be an all-star in 2020" arguments swing just as far in the other ****** direction. Some of those Cavs teams weren't THAT bad, those Miami teams were in fact stacked, and the post Miami Cavs teams were actually really freakin' good with Kyrie/Love. Beating the Warriors was still a big accomplishment, but c'mon we don't have to pretend the Cavs minus LeBron sucked there. They were the preseason favorites to title that year and previous year.

And yeah LeBron is clearly better than Kobe/Bird. I have him 2a to Kareem's 2b in the GOAT standings. Probably a bit above.

His Cavs teams were really good offensively, but don't compare to the Curry-Thompson-Durant-Green Warriors, which is why he was 1-8 vs that team in 2 finals. Jordan's best version of the Bulls would probably still get smoked by that team.

Nah. That '95-'96 Bulls team would be 50/50 to take them in a 7 game series. Bulls win with '96 rules. Warriors win with '17 rules.

As annoyed as you are with the LeBron media narrative (I feel like no one still thinks Bird/Kobe > LeBron, but ok), the anti-MJ anti-90's Bulls narrative is more ridiculous at this point. They won 6 titles in 8 years for a reason.

Lol at the Bulls beating the GOAT Warriors you guys are completely crazy

this was true back when lebron was on the heat. now he probably gets the same amount of respect as any other elite player. the most disrespected superstar is prolly katie.

he has the media outside of skip in his pocket. i mean look at this ****

jordan doesnt even beat the non Durant Warriors. obv Lebron did. and he would have in 2016 if Irvings knee didnt explode or even if Love's elbow wasnt obliterated.

the funny thing is, this trada clown is all like Lebron had great help but Irving and Love have done absolutely nothing without Lebron. like their teams legit suck. bottom of the barrel.

dude is the goat. its really not even close. hes won with the least against the best competition. its pretty embarassing to even claim Jordan after watching their shitty games and comparing to the recent finals in terms of skill and athleticism.

the Jordan simps are only flapping bc the next 2 seasons are gonna be cancelled and thus save his legacy.

Watching Jordan is like watching old timey hockey where the goalies stand straight up and are hammered half the time

ya I mean Joe Dumars was like 5 foot 10 and he was the Jordan stopper. its a complete joke. imagine Jordan facing actual good defenders.

Yeah like if he played against those scrappy college players

Wat?

No, this is so wrong. Stockton was a beneficiary of a PNR system when no other team was running it and feeding the GOAT scoring 4. He didn't have anything approaching special vision.

The best pure pg's of all time are obv Nash and CP3 w/ CP3 being the best due to his athleticism, which obv hugely factored into the defensive side.

Stockton only made the Dream Team bc Jordan said he wouldn't play if Isiah Thomas did (he hated him from freezing him out in an AS game in the 80s and their intense playoff rivalries). Isiah was considered the preeminent point guard other than Magic (being some kind of Bron like hybrid).

Gary Payton is more highly thought of among players (although he's Stockton's biggest proponent).

AI also wasn't considered a pg, that was Eric Snow.

John Stockton is the NBA's Frank Gore

No horse in this race but:



He's like an inch shorter than Tony Allen.

Yes, LeBron is taller than Jordan ldo.

Did LeBron get kicked out of the league for gambling?

Yeah Warriors would hate a 22 foot 3 point line...

How do you think their outside shooting is going to look with more aggressive defense, and hand checking allowed, with Jordan and Pippen (the two greatest wing defenders ever) guarding them? Think they're going to be like "oh I can shoot 21 inches closer! Easy with Scottie bumping me and his hand in my face!"

I don't think they would be imo.

So do you guys honestly think you can teleport any great modern team into any era with any different set of rules and they would trounce the clear GOAT team from that era no matter what? What if we transported the Warriors to 1990 NFL? Would they blow out the Niners that year because iNCREasseED AthLeticism?

Yeah imagine Jordan facing actual good defenders, like a 38 year old Jason Kidd in the 2011 finals (lol did you really just write that with LeBron's history? I feel like you don't actually watch basketball).

Love how Victurr can't refute basic facts about the respective teams, so he resorts to shrinking Joe Dumars (one of the greatest man to man defenders ever) by half a foot and claiming he shut down the greatest pure scorer ever, with statistically the highest peak ever and 6 rings. Yeah Joe Dumars is barely pushing 5 feet, is 38 years old, and shut down Jordan on his hand picked pre-assembled superteam. Oh wait 2 of those are actually true and it was Jason Kidd that did that to LeBron lololol Victurr.