Checkmate.

As long as Kyrie actually plays SG and doesn't retain his PG time of possession.

But the best way to maximize teamwork and brand of basketball is for Lebron to get his same PER playing forward, and therefore with minimal time of possession, like a forward normally would

that would maximize the time available for teammates to have the ball and make plays, which would maximize the production and caliber of basketball the team is capable of playing.. Their assist ranking would be near the top of the league, and their offense would look amazing, as it should considering the dream-team Big 3 talent they have

Obviously, a fully-achieving offense using the Heat or Cavs' super-team talent would be an elite, all-time offense similar to the Spurs, 90's Bulls, or other dynasty offenses, and therefore NOT underdogs versus the Warriors.

And that's the point - since Jordan achieved all-time offenses with less offensive talent, the heat/cavs offenses would be goat with Jordan, and therefore NOT underdogs against the Warriors - it would be 2 titans going at it, ala Celtics/Lakers of the 80's, not some massive mismatch that you guys claim it is with lebron's scrub teams..

Lebron is the first point-forward to win rings

That's fine, but this approach yielded less team production and winning than Bird's traditional off-ball forward style, or Magic's starting PG role, and of course Jordan's starting SG role.

Infact, Lebron's point-forward approach reduced team assists and failed every single time except once during a lockout season, and twice by 1 possession - essentially a bounce that could've gone the either way - and this was after he teamed up with an All-NBA power forward to be his 3rd option, and a star guard to take all the tough shots

sorry not the goat

It's too late to be like Magic

He's already played 14 seasons where his point-forward approach caused teammates to have lower assists alongside him, which resulted in low TEAM assist rankings and teamwork, necessitating super-team talent to win

Otoh, a fully-achieving offense using the Heat or Cavs' super-team talent would be an elite, all-time offense similar to the Spurs, 90's Bulls, or other dynasty offenses, and therefore NOT underdogs versus the Warriors.

And that's the point - since Jordan achieved all-time offenses with less offensive talent, the heat/cavs offenses would be goat with Jordan, and therefore NOT underdogs against the Warriors - it would be 2 titans going at it, ala Celtics/Lakers of the 80's, not some massive mismatch that you guys claim it is with lebron's teams.

heres the thing. team assists, and teammate assist percentage do not matter. like at all. they are not a proxy for "teamwork."

this is just super lol.

Maybe the bulls/spurs have better teamwork since they actually matured together as a team instead of being thrown together over an offseason. The bulls had years to get the pippen/Jordan combo right. Heat and the cavs were expected to win over night. Durant to the warriors is a little different, they just added a great player to an already great team. With that being said, many of the Lebron lead teams are in the top 100 team offenses all time and a few are in the top 25 despite all this **** you write.

Cavs offensive rating during the Finals was 114.6. Really really really good.

To put it in perspective, Bulls offensive rating during each respective Finals were...

91 - 115.7
92 - 110.8
93 - 113
96 - 111.3
97 - 104.6
98 - 105.5

And the Warriors team is better defensively than any of the team the Bulls played. Most of them (like the Lakers and Phx), by a lot.

And remember the Bulls won each of those series. Cavs had an awesome offensive rating and got destroyed.

Cavs offense wasn't the problem. It was their defense (or not having a defense that can stop the Warriors juggernaut).

and MJ never won a title without another top 10 wing oat. anyone can play that game...

this is where the argument comes full circle and, when faced with statistical proof of a failed argument, he replies with, "6-0".

Your argument then boils down to "Blame the GM for not getting a PF instead of a PG." Or maybe "Blame the coach for playing a PG instead of a PF." Those are pretty terrible arguments.

Also, back on the usage.

You complain that LeBron has too high a usage rate for someone not playing the point.

Are you complaining that Kwahi's is too high? His was higher.

Or Durant's (only 2% less)?

It's some stat beyond usage--it's like time of possession. I'm not sure where you get that stat or get historical stat. I don't think Lebron's # has been that crazy except when Kyrie/Love missed the finals.

MJ was essentially a point forward/SG same with Pippen. Kobe was the same. Bird was a PF who passed very well. Wade is the same. So there are a number of teams which have won titles with guys very similar to Lebron. Lebron might have a little higher assist #s but all of these guys have essentially been point-whatever you want to call them for much of their careers.

jordan's one late round great draft pick away from having a lot less rings

give lebron prime shaq or pippen and he has a lot more than 3 rings

lebron isnt even the best play on the nba at this time, and was clear dominant for not many years as well.

is this from google translate?

he's been almost clearly the best player for the last decade.

he was the best player throughout the playoffs (Durant was best in the finals). he was the best player the last few playoffs even when he's lost. he's definitely slacked some in the regular season the past few seasons but he's basically been the 3-5th best player when he's slacked at times.

That doesnt sound like a description of the GOATs performance

going to give you a hint, MJ wasn't the best player in the NBA at the end of his career especially during the 2nd 3 peat. GOAT, you'd figure, wouldn't retire twice in the middle of his career too.

ffs his best friend/father got murdered

no one ever cares about that, it's amazing yet unsurprising

Which he caused to happen by not paying his gambling debts.

Meanwhile LeBron just piles on more and more money with wise business investments.

Yes lets measure the height of their respective money piles

Depends on the defense - you're forgetting that a team's ORtg equals the opponent's DRtg

So it's equally likely that cavs' ortg is due to the warriors' bad defense - infact, you just said that the warriors high ortg was due to the CAVS' bad defense (and apparently not the Warriors' all-time offense)

And therein lies the rub - surely the Warriors high ortg is due to their spectacular offense, right?... Or wait, is it the Cavs' bad defense?.. what about the Warriors' 122 rating against the Spurs - was it bad spurs defense, or great warrior offense?

The obvious reality is that team ortg and drtg in a single series could never be used to say "this team has an all-time great offense or defense".. A team can have a high ortg in one series and a low one in the next, because teams settle into a strategy and flow against one opponent that could be vastly different from the next opponent.. So when people talk about all-time great offenses or defenses, they're talking about regular season ratings, which occur against a wide range of opponents - they don't look at one playoff series and say "look at the high ortg in that series - that confirms they have an all-time great offense" lol


Again, based on the standard measure of offensive capability (regular season ortg), Lebron's offenses have never achieved all-time ranking, which is an underachievement given his Big 3 talent.

It's remarkable - regardless of how much Big 3 talent he gets and how many payroll records are broken, Lebron's offenses can't achieve all-time rankings because his point guard style utilizes an abnormally high time of possession for a forward, which reduces his teammates' time of possession and playmaking opportunity.

Specifically, every teammate saw their assists decline alongside Lebron, so the TEAM had low assist rankings/teamwork and could never produce an all-time great offense.

But obviously, a fully-achieving offense using the Heat or Cavs' super-team talent would be goat-level, similar to the Spurs, 90's Bulls, or other dynasty offenses, and therefore NOT underdogs versus the Warriors.

And that's the point - since Jordan achieved all-time offenses with LESS offensive talent, the heat/cavs' offenses would be goat with Jordan, and therefore NOT underdogs against the Warriors or Spurs - it would be 2 titans going at it, ala Celtics/Lakers of the 80's, not some massive mismatch people claim it is with lebron's teams.





Nonsense - defenders in previous eras had BIG advantages - they didn't have to defend spacing, and also got to touch the offensive player on penetration.

So you can't compare.. The Bulls were essentially the kings of no spacing, so who knows how they'd be WITH spaced courts and today's strategy geared at maintaining spacing throughout each possession.. It stands to reason that they would find it much easier with spacing, and their skills would excel even more in a spaced environment.


Nonsense, smh.. based on what?.. Based on the Warriors giving up greater ortg to the Cavs (115) than anyone Jordan faced?

But I don't need to cherry-pick one series - each of the Bulls' Finals opponents during the 2nd three-peat had lower drtg in regular season than the 2017 Warriors..

And the Sonics' drtg was 5.5 points below the league average of 107.6, whereas the Warriors' drtg was only 4.8 points below the league average of 108.8 in 2017 (a record btw).

Also - during the 1st three-peat, the Blazers ranked 3rd in defense with 104.2 drtg, which is essentially the same as the Warriors this year (104.0 and 2nd).. The Blazers were 4.0 points below the league average, compared to 4.8 for the Warriors this year - however, it was easier for the Warriors to be below league-average because the NBA went gangbusters this season with record ortg.

Btw, the 91' Lakers are also very close to this year's Warriors in drtg (105.0) and defensive ranking (5th).. So these Warriors aren't "a lot" better defensively than the Lakers.. And the Lakers didn't give up 115 ortg to Jordan's Bulls like the Warriors gave up to the Cavs
.

Lebron formed super-teams that could compete for championships right away

How is that harder than waiting years for a team to develop and compete?

You act like maturing into a championship team is automatic - it isn't - it takes time and perseverance, which is why it's harder than being granted super-teams that can compete for rings right away
.

there's a strong correlation between championship teams and team APG, in the sense that championship teams tend to rank high in APG

the champions that don't rank high in assists, tend to have excessive, "super-team" talent to offset their lesser teamwork