Yeah, instead of drafting Pippen and Grant or Kukoc; the Cavs drafted Luke Jackson at 10 the next year; Wagner the year before at 6; Shannon Brown at 25 ; JJ Hickson at 19. They were never bad enough after a while to draft very high and never hit in the draft. Again, should Lebron get the blame for the Cavs poor moves? The only good pick they made was Boozer and they screwed that up.

That's essentially what you're doing and you're giving credit for the good moves the Bulls made with Jordan to Jordan.

You win titles for a number of reasons; 1 is lucky for a few years in draft (Chicago, Spurs) 2 is get top flight FAs/trade + good drafting (Lakers/Celtics/Cavs/Heat)

Lebron deserves more of the blame for what the Heat and the new Cavs were doing but the earlier Cavs did stuff but they didn't do enough and they weren't built long term with a bunch of older, crap players or guys not in their prime. Do you guys think HOF players grow on trees and are drafted when you have other HOF players?

No I'm crediting Jordan with developing the 5th and 10th player in the NBA draft and making them better and creating a dynasty with them as opposed to star-hunting or super-teaming.

I'm also pointing out that Jordan never once had an established top 25 player in the league come to him in their prime, nor did he ever go to a team with a top 25 player in their prime, nevermind two of them. GOAT

Also GM LeBron had the #1 pick in the draft (not 5 or 10) and decided to trade him for...an established all-star in his prime

Your second point wasn't common place during that era. This is a different era where top 5 players are moving teams through FAs; that never really happened often in the past sans Shaq.

How do we know Pippen/Grant wouldn't have become good without Jordan around? they were both top picks. It's not like the picks that the Cavs missed went elsewhere and became HOFers or even good players. The one good player they drafted in the Lebron era; they let go because they're idiots. Afterwards they drafted like **** and that's why he left.

Again, if Lebron was fortunate enough for the Cavs to have drafted a top 5 player in the league then he wouldn't have left. They didn't even draft very good starters. I'm still shocked they won 67 games one season but couldn't match the Magic in the playoffs or the Boston Big 4.

We don't but we do know they DID become good with Jordan. That's fact. You can speculate whether they would or would have become good and great without Jordan, but it's not provable in any way where the fact that they did become great with Jordan is provable. Odds are obv not great though to exceed the careers they had with Jordan v. another random team and/or LeBron Given the fact that LeBron never made a rookie better is telling also.

Finally, the Bulls didn't draft a top 5 player in the league, they drafted a player who developed into a top 5 player in the league. Big different when comparing LeBron who had similar picks in drafts, and they never developed, and who joined established multiple top 20 players itl

You are assuming correlation is causation. You can't prove your side either.

Yes I can.

Scottie Pippen was picked #5 by the Chicago Bulls, with GOAT Michael Jordan, and developed into a top 50 player OAT.

Horace Grant was picked #10 by the Chicago Bulls, with GOAT Michael Jordan, and developed into a good to very good player.

That actually happened. Scottie Pippen was not a top 5 player itl the day he joined the Bulls. Neither was Horace Grant

Gervin went there in 86. He was an All Star the season before and only a season removed from being in the All NBA 2nd team. He was 33.

Pretty sure he would have been a Top 25 player.

lol ya morons thought this

I don't think he understands what that means.

On a side note Michael Jordan isn't good enough to win without an all time great coach. Simple not good enough. Can't lead the players without someone else doing it.

It's clear he doesn't but I'm tired of arguing with him.

I think Jordan helped Pippen become what he was. I'm not sure to what extent that he was.

He's right there haven't been many rookies who have developed with LEbron. I don't have a great reason of why that happened. The last 7 years they really haven't had many elite picks around him. Before then, the guys were really never that good. I'm not sure if Michael Jordan was going to turn Wagner/Luke Jackson into all-stars.

Remember that time the Brontards spouted off about LJ being the Goat and were proved wrong time and time again.

Moron

ya only morons think this

I don't know if I agree with this, really doesn't matter tbh.

But I would be interested to see what LJ could do with a Popovich, Jackson type coach

I do remember when the jordan arguments were so terribad that they actually turned 2 prior jordan fans to defending lebron.

When Cleveland trades their elite pick and Lebron has a hand in it you really can't blame Cleveland.

Let the GM's GM you know what I'm saying.

Another example of Lebron always getting what he wants and not having to work extremely hard for anything

I don't really know how it all went down, but if it's true and LeBron forced there hand, well, if I'm Cleveland and get told I can have....

Option 1 - LeBron and Love

or

Option 2 - Number 1 pick in a so-so draft

Well it's a no brainer.

Can Lebron really afford to gamble on not only Wiggins being good but that he can develop into a great player in a few years? If Lebron was 25, I can see them waiting. Lebron was turning 30; he has 4-7 years of possible elite play left and Wiggins didn't come with a guarantee--it's not like was the next Lebron or Duncan or Anthony Davis; he was a good prospect in an okay draft who would have been the 2nd or 3rd pick if Embiid was healthy. Wiggins has turned into an okay player at best and disappointing if you consider he was taken #1.

Even though Love hasn't been an amazing player (it's not his role to be that player) he's been a very good 3rd option for a very good team (excelling in rebounding, 3 point shooting and scoring. I don't see how their decision was wrong in this case. The formation of the team got Cleveland a title and chances in 2 other seasons already; they just ran into the Warriors three times in a row.

I wish Love was a little better defender and a better matchup with the Warriors but that's just how things are. Most teams of the Warriors caliber are going to expose your 3rd options' weakness if they can.

And btw Kobe was considered better than Lebron for a good while.

If you know so much Victor, which year did LJ pass Kobe as a better player?

yes idiots thought kobe was better for a long time.

lebron was clearly better beginning in his 3rd season when he averaged 31/6.6/7 with a 28 per and took an awful cavs team to 7 games vs the pistons.

I always though LeBron was projecting to be better than Kobe from day one.

Not necessarily, there is something to be said for the best player in the league taking a rookie like Wiggins and molding him into exactly what he wants him to be.
Love already had his own thoughts and outlook in which he perceived how the league works .He also already had money.
People forget how humans operate.

Wiggins had none of this, just a hope and a dream. His biggest dream was probably to play with LJ.
Lebron could have molded him the way Jordan did pippen.
With Love , not so much.

Tbf though I don't think we can put the blame on Lebron.

Who is the next Lebron, Duncan, or Davis?
You never know? Jordan wasn't drafted #1

ya ofc, as if this thread wasnt idiotic enough, lets blame lebron for taking love over an 18 year old wiggins. I mean, jfc. ya 30 yr old lebron should just eschew a prime all star who fits for a super unpolished wing who plays the same position.

this thread really has it all. you ppl continue to find ways to drag it lower. just amazing.

I agree, but projecting and being are 2 different things