I think the Warriors have redefined Superteam.

Super teams used to mean a big 3. If you look at say the 2000 Lakers. Thats a super team. Same thing with the big 3 Celtics. I would characterize the 2011 and 2012 Heat teams as also super teams.

Wade was barely replacement level in 2014, he was really really bad and the Heat lacked depth. They were ****ed once either Wade or Bosh declined.

If we're holding 1 series, 2011 against LeBron, I'm holding the fact that Jordan was never good enough between 18-20 years old to be in the NBA. We don't get to just polish over Jordan blemishes and discount them as we choose.

LeBron was NBA ready at 18, probably even 17. Jordan would have been cut at 18 if he was drafted by the NBA.


Basketball GOATness is like art. LeBron had 1 subpar painting, yet put together countless master pieces since he was 16 years old. Find me another player that will surpass what LeBron is doing beginning at 18 years old till retirement, probably 16-17 straight years of greatness. I'll wait a long freaking time.

Wade didn't care anymore in 2014. Wade stop caring after his 3rd.

LeBron is pretty ruthless with teammates that show they don't want it as bad as he does or can't deliver consistently. That's why he IDGAF ripped Cleveland's heart out in 2010, and that's why LeBron dumped the entire Miami relationship he had.

I also think that's why Kevin Love is on the chopping block for Paul George.

I see so we speak about GOAT in NBA and you go into high school...

Wtf does it matter Jordan was not NBA level at 18 ( i guess he was less physical gifted than lebron you know, physical maturity does not happen to man at the same age..) while Lebron was.
We judge players when they are actually ready to be in the NBA

Good for Lebron if he enter earlier, he gets more chances and time to surpass Jordan.
If Lebron cant, you gona turn a liability ( done less with more time ?) into a positive one over Jordan ?
lol...


About the first bolded part, you kinda like discredit a player in the NBA while he was not even in yet ?
It is like we critic a worker on his work but not on actually what he did at the job , but what he did in school or w.e it was 5 years before he worked there.
nonsense...
good for him.
winner character trait

Think I have to break my ignore cherry. Gerb, Woody deep down don't believe what they say half the time, but this guy actually deep down believes everything he says.

Montreal

My point is that Jordan has blemishes too. He wasn't perfect, and neither was LeBron.

So if LeBron critics want to point fingers at 2011, I will point a finger at Jordan's college career.

We take the aggregate of the positives of a great artist to determine his legacy. We don't say Picasso isn't the GOAT because he had 1 sub par painting out of dozens of masterpieces.

2007 was a LeBron masterpiece. Going into the league at 18 was a masterpiece. 2009 with 66 wins was a materpiece. Hauling a hobbled Cavs team to 6 games in 2015 was a masterpiece. 27 game win streak is a masterpiece. 7 straight finals, It goes on and on and on.

And I'm not even talking about his finals victories.

I troll Jordan fans but I consider LeBron on the same level. It's coming. Every year the conversation just gets more heated. Jordan fans just gonna have to accept that this GOAT bus better make room for 2 seats in the house.

jordan's style of scoring facilitated better teamwork than lebron's style - if your team happens to have an unstoppable perimeter scorer, you'd want that scorer getting their points like jordan did

his scoring style allows a team to have great teamwork and high assist rankings.. without high assists, it's impossible for a team to play a high BRAND OF BASKETBALL, which is needed by nearly every championship team (except those with exorbitant talent, such as 'super' teams).

unfortunately, it's impossible for lebron's teams to have great teamwork because his presence lowers his teammates' assists.. every key teammate in lebron's career (wade, kyrie, bosh, love, mo williams) saw their APG and assist percentage decline alongside lebron.. with teammates getting less assists, lebron's teams rank low in assists every year (14.8 average ranking for his career, versus 7.7 rank for jordan's teams).. since lebron's teams have less teamwork, lebron needs excessive supporting TALENT to win (aka team-hopping)

now why does lebron's scoring style lower his teammates' assists? ..Lebron scores like a point guard: so that means he scores mostly ON HIS OWN via live dribble, and therefore unassisted by teammates, while using a high time of possession. this point guard style (low assisted rate, high time of possession) is inherently suboptimal when it comes from the forward position: it adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

otoh, jordan was one of the best catch-and-shoot players in the league, while also scoring a lot of points via slashing and quick moves from the triple-threat.. this type of off-ball scoring is ASSISTED, so it promotes playmaking from teammates and team assists, while also fitting into any structured, high-level offense.. good teamwork is why jordan's teammates played to full capacity alongside him, which mean the TEAM played to full capacity and virtually never underachieved.. otoh, lebron's lesser teamwork has prevented teammates from playing to full capacity, which has led to team underperformance like losing as the favorite.. the goat should never lose as the favorite

Trainwreckdog.

Welcome back. We missed you.

Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)



Stats at 21 years old versus championship team and #1 defense:

Jordan vs. 86' Celtics:. 44 ppg on 51%
Lebron vs. 07' iSpurs:. 22 ppg on 36%

so you just picked '07 to compare with one of Jordan's best years, we missed you twg

i picked that year because that was when jordan was 21 years old and faced a championship team and #1 defense, just like lebron in 2007.. except jordan scored twice as much with 15 points higher fg%

here, look at how jordan carried a far bigger burden in 4th quarters - each stat is linked to nba.com source

..............PERCENTAGE OF TEAM PTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR


........................RS......RS 4th.... PO.....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3...... 40.9...... 50.4<-- link nba.com
JORDAN 1998... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8...... 43.6...... 49.1

LEBRON 2012... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2016... 31.5..... 36.7..... 30.2..... 35.2...... 33.9...... 47.1
LEBRON 2017... 29.6..... 33.5..... 32.2..... 37.4...... 31.8...... 30.0

notice the difference in 4th quarter burden - it's safe to say that lebron doesn't control 4th like jordan and consequently, he loses a lot of close games that jordan never would (i.e. game 3 in these finals)

also notice how lebron's 4th quarter burden in 2016 nearly matched 97/98 jordan, but then returned to it's normal level this year.. surely the cavs would've won Game 3 this year and generally kept up in the 4th quarter better if lebron had undertook his 2016 4th quarter burden again this year.

keep in mind that those stats are for 34-35 year old Jordan, and his burden is topping lebron's by a mile - detractors will point to Lebron's edge on the defensive glass, but a #1 option's scoring and clutch scoring is less replaceable than defensive rebounds, and therefore much more important.

keep in mind that every key teammate that lebron ever had (wade, kyrie, bosh, love, mo williams) saw their assists decline alongside lebron.. with teammates getting less assists alongside lebron, the TEAM ranks low in assists each season (15th average ranking for lebron's career).. the lesser teamwork necessitates exorbitant talent to win (aka team-hopping)..

so anytime you consider lebron's assists, keep in mind that he's getting them by reducing his teammates' and the team's assists.. for example, what good are lebron's 10 assists per game in the Finals if his team only averaged 21 compared to the warrior's 29?.. how did the cavs expect to beat a talented team using the inferior teamwork and assists of lebron-ball? lol

but back to jordan's scoring - it's important to note that no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career... EXCEPT Jordan, who did so by an astounding average margin of 15.4 ppg.. so jordan faced greater defensive attention, since he was scoring 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 1 ppg for lebron over kyrie.. again - this massive scoring gap is irreplaceable compared to lebron's defensive rebounds.

finally, it's important to point out that in addition to jordan's ridiculous goats scoring load, he led his team in passing - he led the bulls in assists for most playoff runs, and assisted on the highest proportion of bulls field goals during both 3-peats (jordan's assist percentage in 91-93' playoffs was 31.1% versus pippen's 22.3%, and it was 22.3% to pippen's 22.0% in 96-98' playoffs)..

btw, not only does jordan have twice the rings as lebron thru 14 seasons, but he was required to produce more to win his rings - thru each player's first 3 rings (thru 31 years old), jordan scored 7 more ppg in playoffs with equal assists, as shown here.
.

Yesssssssssssssss TWOG GOAT MJ vs Lebroni poster

The last link where you're evidence is your own post on another message board is pretty hilarious. Likewise them being annoyed by your posts like everyone is here is also pretty funny.

I do see some issues with lebrons style but I'm not sure your rationale of why is really true. These arguments are very similar to why you think cp3 is an issue.

It's just like me saying BPM, RPM says LeBron is better, so ima go with that.

He is just like a few other posters who annoy the crap out of this message board with their gospel but do the same thing on other boards and do the exact same thing there. The tipping lady on OOT has blogs and posts her same drivel on a ton of other boards.

TRAINWRECK

He is on the block bc paul George is a better fit and brings someone that can defend and switch vs gsw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure what people are expecting from a 3rd option. Love was fine in these Finals.

As mentioned above. The trade is going to be for a better fit. That's all.

I know what I'll be expecting to hear if the trade goes through ...

"Paul George is washed up, and only good for defense! LeBron needs more help!"

i think people expect low volume, high efficiency. His 3pt% was ok, but he couldn't make a shot around the rim to save his life. He played decent defense though, about as well as he can

there is too much hate for the lebron and wade combo. before wade was washed up they won 2 finals and lost when they were favored vs the mavs. if they had been together throughout their primes they would have won a few more surely but that last season with wade was much more about him being banged up and worn out in the playoffs than it being a bad fit.

Wade being washed up is a hilarious stroke of fiction and propaganda by the LeBron stans. He's STILL not washed up. He is still very good. People are acting like Wade was washed up while LeBron was in Miami is beyond laughable.

You guys just go through really silly lengths to discredit every single teammate LeBron has ever had. Wade washed up. Kyrie sucks. Love sucks . Bosh was perfect fit despite Bron turning him into a glorified catch and shoot stretch 4 when he was legitimately an elite scorer and creator before that.

Ok.

Tom Brady went to college for 4 years and was good enough to have 198 players picked ahead of him. WOAT

In this thread, Pro Jordan's think Wade is still good in2017.