this is my last post on the topic - i realize that the reason i have not gotten feedback about the argument that lebron's dribble-penetration style would fail with mj's supporting casts due to the 3-pt shooting - is because the argument is a slam dunk.

the numbers just don't lie here, and the empirical evidence of lebron losing previously vs dallas because he needed to add to his game, despite being so big and strong, only provides an even more solid foundation for the argument. it would be dallas all over again, but worse.

it is irrefutable and one of the best arguments ever come up with on here regarding the topic.

lebron would NOT have been able to win championships with mj's supporting cast because of this:


here are the number of players on lebron's cleveland teams that made at least 0.9 three-pt shots per game:

2011: 6
2010: 8
2009: 5 (10 over 0.6)
2008: 6


lebron's miami teams:

2012: 5
2013: 6


compare that to mj's teams:

1989: 1
1990: 2
1991: 1
1992: 0
1993: 1
1996: 4 (shorter line)
1997: 5 (shorter line)
1998: 3

just like against dallas, his superior size and strength means nothing if he can't play optimally, which in this case would not be dribble-penetrating, it would be posting, and operating off-the-ball.

as i said before, it is far easier for mj to play in today's game because he already had the off-the-dribble and penetrating ability to do so, whereas for lebron, it would be much tougher for him to go against what is natural for him and develop the type of post game and off-the-ball ability that would be needed to dominate the game the way mj did.

If it's such a dumb stance, it should be really easy for you to provide evidence to the contrary. I'm glad to be wrong here.

You're blaming the refs. Shocker

I'm not blaming anyone. I want to be wrong here. I just said I don't remember any instances of a (significant) close call going against MJ in the playoffs post first rang. This is a factual statement only. If this factual statement is in err, please, please, post evidence to the contrary.

Wait wait so iggy said that no team Jordan ever faced was as good as this spurs team ?!?


Was last years thunder team better btw ?

i dont think its outlandish to say the NBA has become more game theory optimal over the last 20 years, and so assuming that talent levels are constant (when in reality this is impossible to debate because talent is always relative and sample sizes are so small with pro athletes and removing for fluke extreme outliers) or rising (the more real case given nutritional science, kinetics analysis, game flow optimization through system modelling, coaching decision making).

so iggy probably used hyperbole because it's a really uncertain and unprovable hypothesis, but i actually agree with him. (it's easier to say these two teams are better or worse than the last years best two teams or even two years removed; but its much more improvable to use 2 teams from 20 years ago)

Where are your facts to say he got away with anything? How could anyone ever judge this?

This is the most excited I have been to watch an NBA finals in years. I am a huge Tim Duncan fan. For many years I have felt he is the GOAT NBA player since MJ. Then there is Miami and LBJ. He is in the middle of what someday might be considered the GOAT NBA career.

This finals reminds me a lot of when the Bulls beat the Lakers and MJ overtook Magic as the best in the NBA. If the Spurs win they will be among the greatest teams of all time. Joining the 60's celtics and 90's bulls. If the Spurs win, it will be very challenging to ever put LBJ ahead of Duncan since Duncan will have beat him 2x in the finals and LBJ will have 3 runner up finishes.

If Miami wins they will be on the road to becoming a dynasty. LBJ will have a chance to become one of the all time greats. LBJ has everything to lose here. Tim Duncan has everything to win.

Bring it on......

nice, high level post burke - said a lot with just a little. some good points.

not that you were, but i would stop far short of putting this spurs team anywhere near the utah teams.

the utah teams were pretty game-theory optimal, despite not shooting as many 3's.

they had the #1 offense in the league with a 112.7 offensive rating, higher than the spurs this year who had 108.3.

and utah's pace was only 89.3 (21st of 29), so they were really grinding it out but still maintained elite efficiency on offense.

keep in mind that in 1998 utah drubbed a 56-win pop/drob/duncan team 4-1 in ecsf, (when drob was still really good), so duncan/pop is not somehow unbeatable by utah - worth a mention so as to not get the perceptions warped by recency....

then the jazz SWEPT the loaded lakers (shaq, kobe, eddie jones, van exel, elden campbell, rick fox, derek fisher, robert horry !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

i highly doubt this spurs team would do that well against a team like that.

then the rosters compare in utah's favor.

prime malone (28 PER, 27ppg) > current duncan
stockton (22 PER) more of less = parker 23 PER
hornacek 19 PER = ginobili 19

the supporting casts are a wash (i.e. danny green < shandon anderson even without the 3's - anderson had higher offensive rating and ows) and supporting casts as we know are in large part fillers/placeholders around the guys dictating the action.

Well, judging by the fact that no one, including you and trainwreck (Mr. Jordan Homer himself) hasn't posted a single video (or anecdote) to the contrary is pretty damning evidence that such evidence doesn't exist, or that it's exceptionally rare. To be fair, it could just be the case that being (relatively) so long in the past, it's going to be difficult to remember.

Just for clarification, what I said wasn't that MJ got away with whatever (that's a positive claim for which I would need to supply evidence). My claim was slightly different, "I'm sure there are examples where a close call went against MJ, I just can't remember any."

By showing a call that's close/significant, and where that call went against MJ in the playoffs, post first rang. We have two examples in two games this past playoff series for LeBron: him fouling out in crunch time with a moving screen, and the 'verticality' call that went against him. Surely, someone can remember a single instance of something similar happening to MJ. There's one hundred and nine games to choose from, for god's sake.

jordan got the calls, lebron got to team up with clyde drexler and kevin mchale, i mean wade and bosh

i may be a homer, but i make a good effort to only come up with viable arguments.

here's a call mj didn't get..

That was like 13 years ago bro, aint nobody got time to remember that.

bron gets calls too. i would consider what happened to him vs indiana was just an anomaly

I already addressed this. No call was made, so no one "got" the call. We need an example of a call going against MJ.

a no-call like that is just like a call that went against him.

i'm sure he's had calls that went against him.

maybe not with the game on the line, but mj was always perfect with the game on the line, you know that.

hard to remember being that long ago.

other than series vs orlando when he returned from baseball, i can't remember mj turning it over with the game on the line like lebron has done a fair amount.

plus you know lebron isn't used to setting screens so not surprising he turned it over that way
.

I agree. Still, I'm surprised that apparently no one can remember of a single specific example.

Too lazy.

Too lazy to remember? That's pretty lazy.

well i remember that one time.....

seriously this is a hard question. if i posed the same question about Clyde Drexler, Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway, etc i think we'd still have a tough time coming up with examples.

Agreed. I still think that given the collective memory of SE, and the fact that it's Michael Jeffrey Jordan, and not someone else, we'd be able to get a single example, even if it's just anecdotal.

Too many gravs over the years

LOLOL. How did you come up with 0.9 threes? Just at random? You're certainly not cherry picking random numbers to suit your argument, are you? Also, of course MJ's teams had less 3-point shooters. Everyone took less threes then. In 1991, the average team made 187 3-pointers per season. This year, the team who shot the least threes in the entire league (Memphis) shot 382, over twice the average from 1991. The fact that you tried to present something this intellectually dishonest as a legitimate argument is stunning.

dude, teams take like twice as many 3s nowadays than in jordans years. apply some context pls.

This thread is hilarious. LeBron is so clearly obviously not the GOAT, and even his supporters are saying, well not as of right now, ldo, but maybe someday.

However, then they try to compare him to MJ at similar ages or years in the league. Again, this is completely ******ed because as of 1990 or whenever, MJ wasn't even close to being or regarded as being GOAT. And if you are just comparing best peak player, whether for 1 year, 3, 5, or whatever, well then sure, theyre close, but so are Shaq and a bunch of others who can get into the mix as well.

The entire point is that MJ won 6 championships, 3 straight twice, as the best player on the team and in the league, putting up crazy #'s. LeBron has done that once. The real question is, in order to actually be considered GOAT, how many times will LeBron need to do that to surpass MJ?

I still think he needs 6 to do that, and is a big dog to get there. Thoughts otherwise are over-projecting and full of wanting.