I've still got MJ as the GOAT, and it's not so close that I really second guess my opinion (though it's obviously closer between MJ and LBJ than LBJ and whoever #3 is, lol anyone who thinks MJ and LBJ aren't their own tier), but win or lose on Sunday, this is the greatest individual Finals performance of all time.

I think Magic is in that tier. What would he have to do?

In some ways, James stats in post-season are better than Jordan. Jordan averages 5 more points than James but on 5 more shots, and James has the edge several other key places. Not saying James is better and I don't think he is on intangibles, but the level of play of James to be dissed is ridiculous.

On that top tier I'd also have Olajuwon and maybe Bird. Maybe Kobe. The total game effect of those players is so epic. And Olajuwon might be the greatest. His first 10 years in playoffs he's averaging nearly 30 pts, including some way over 30, including decimation of Shaq, ...14 rebounds, 4 blocks all the way thru . And he doesn't make the poll??? So eerie that he was taken over Jordan in draft and it isn't a joke. They are probably the two greatest players of the last 30 years with James next.

I'm gonna go with:

1. Jordan
2. Olajuwon
3/4. James/Magic

1/2 a near photo and 3/4 a pure photo.

Please don't include Kobe--he has no business in the GOAT discussion. He's in the 10-20 range. Magic's issue are D and how long he played due to his disease. Magic's peak is sick though. Peak Hakeem is very good but nowhere near MJ/Lebron peak.

MJ/Lebron are 1/2 in PER--Hakeem is 16th. Shaq is 3rd, Drob is 4th btw. Of the top 15 PER seasons all time, Lebron has 4, MJ has 4, Wilt has 3. Hakeem's best year is 82nd.

Which was pretty much true last year too.

Today I learned that Ben Wallace's playing peak was in Cleveland.

In elimination game 7 Kobe went 6-24 in 2010.

I love Kobe and rooted for him but he's not on same level.

I never know where to put Hakeem BUT he has GOAT intangibles, quickness of feet for big man, rebounding, scoring ability, defensive ability, handles of a guard.

But never played next to another all time great. Hakeem's legacy would be top 5 in my opinion if he had Scottie Pippen with him his entire career.


If you replaced Hakeem with Duncan's position with poppovich and crew, 5 rings as well? I think so. Hakeem is in my top 10, but one of the players that truly truly suffers because he never had all time great supporting cast compared to everyone else in top 10.

Yep. He never had that all-world player with the ball like Magic, Jordan, Isaiah, Wade, Kobe, Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Parker ... West, Cousy for their era, etc. He was far from a one man show, lots of talent on the team of course, but never that god guard that so many NBA champs have.

I was just running NBA champs since 1980 thru my head and trying to come up with one that didn't have that otherworldly guard. Maybe the Celtics Bird teams are the only one. Others??

I always thought it was a shame that Houston and Olajuwon never made it to the finals in a Bulls/Jordan year. That would have been sick. Both Jordan and Kobe gushed over his sick talent that no one could deal with, but I'm sure Bulls would have abused them elsewhere and taken them. Too bad though.

Of course Olajuwon doesn't have the ball near the time as the guards and swing men. And I'm arguing above about best in postseason, not necessarily the 2nd best ever player. Anyway, in those stats, what about the dozens of shots a game that Hakeem blocks, changes, or they don't even try because of his presence.

So the question maybe comes down in what order do you draft from the following, all age 20:

MJ
James
Magic
Chamberlain
Olajuwon
Duncan
Shaq
Robert Horry
?

Depends on who you already have a little bit. If I had Isaiah already, I'd take Olajuwon. But that's loading the question. If you have a start-up franchise you have to take Jordan or James, obv.

Every NBA team takes Shaq first. Probably most take Chamberlain or Olajuwon second and Duncan fourth, also before Jordan and James. You can't teach enormous athleticism. Of course this isn't speculation entirely - Olajuwon was picked 1st and Jordan was picked 3rd (after Sam Bowie) in 1984. The only first pick in the 1980s that wasn't a center or power forward was Mark Aguirre (Isaiah went 2nd), and in the 90s the only ones that come to mind are Glenn Robinson and Iverson. Historically aprox. half of 1st picks are centers. Olawakondi and Bogut went 1st.

Horry, of course, doesn't belong on the list.

But I mean more somehow if they had already seen their career and knew exactly what they were going to be, then they were all in the same draft thru upcoming cloning scandal in sports.

If they knew Jordan was Jordan, Bowie was Bowie, etc. etc. - and exactly what their NBA career was - who would they take the second time around?

I think it would be Jordan and James one and two.

Agree they overvalue the bigs but wasn't there a sick run of 7-footers in 80's that were Hall of Famers then they just got stuck on that when the well was a little more dry.

It's not that they over value the bigs it's that the skills that jordan, and to a lesser extent james, have are more easily replaceable.

labron (83 votes)
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CLEVELAND

This

bump

1a Jordan
1b LeBron

Nobody else.


Unban TWOG and LeoTrollstoy

isiah thomas just said the first smart thing of his career. He puts them up there with Jordan as best ever.

One more ring and it's over though. 4-4 is every bit as good as 6-0, and 4-5 or 4-6 are better.

I hope someone else does this for me.

But please quote all Wooderson posts in this thread and laugh at them.

Also respond to every one of his posts with one of his LeBron quotes.

I'm so sad EpiPen is gone and we can't also LOL at him for the next summer.

Whelp

Yup. 'Bron, The Captain and MJ

Makes me so happy Lebron won that

Not that it's got a huge amount to do with the GOAT argument because count by rings is stupid, but lololol no. Even not accounting for lolEast, no prizes for second bro.