Steph should be excluded from this list until he can win a finals as his team's best player imo.

If LBJ and Lebron switch teams/eras, LBJ has 8ish titles while MJ has ~1 and ~10 first round exits.

MJ and Curry both have something in common, playing with criminally underrated defensive players. Not that they are underrated as defenders, but their impact on the game on defense is still underrated and thus they are underrated as players overall.

Pippen, Rodman, Dray, Iggy. Bogut and Harper as well.

When you are the best offensive player surrounded by top defensive players that is a pretty, pretty good in situation.

Maybe it's nitpicking, but I'd describe Kobe as the help for Shaq (and maybe for Pau too).

LOL at Curry not being warrs best player.

MJ wouldnt switch teams like that hes not LBJ. MJ beat what was in front of him in the finals 6/6 times thats all u can do. Also have to keep in mind the PEDS nowadays are way way better then when MJ played so if they switched times he would be way bigger,faster, and stronger as well.

LBJ couldnt win with his hometown team so he called the 2 best players in the east to form a team and win some. Once those two got old he took off and jetted out of town to go form another team with 2 so called(so called)great players at the time he switched. He hand picked free agents and made coaching decisions and trades. He has nobody but to blame but himself for the quality of the teams.

Lebron haters are so pathetic. Sorry but 2 titles actually proves how clutch he is

oRAPM disagrees bro, and yes that takes that context into account(though so does oRat)

MJ with a eurostep would be pretty sick.

LBJ has had a great career. Just not GOAT level career. If he would ship 4-5 i could concede that to him with the fact he has had alot of finals trips.

Thing is Curry is gonna rattle off 3+ titles in a row most likely beating LBJ all 3 times and then people will have this debate about a more worthy player in Curry vs MJ so it doesnt matter.

YF- here's how the '14-'15 Heat and '93-'94 Bulls were affected by losing their GOAT.

Keep in mind that the Heat gained a full season of Luol Deng, over half a season of Hassan Whiteside, and 26 games of Goran Dragic, while losing Bosh for ~40 games. Bulls were largely the same time aside from acquiring Kukoc & Kerr. You'd certainly expect the Bulls to take a much bigger hit than the Heat when you combine the acquisitions with the fact that supposedly the Bulls were playing in a tougher conference. I guess I am arguing with a guy who thinks the discussion ends at "1/1 vs 2/6", dunno why I'm wasting my time. Robert Horry GOAT! 7/7!!!!!

AJ

again, I watch the games, I watch Steph/LBJ more than you. you're hugely underrating the impact LBJ has on his teammates thinking the difference is that massive. There are basically 0 stats to prove the difference between the two, wrt the value they provide to their team offense, is wide. Definitely not close to as wide as the edge LBJ has in rebounding and defense.

The heat didnt just lose LBJ from that team. Bosh missed half the season. wade was banged up all year and missed tons of time as well. Whiteside started playing when more then half the season was over. Deng/Dragic suck and still suck.

Also theirs a diff between comparing the qb of the offense like LBJ/MJ/Curry to a guy who comes in and kicks FGS like Horry when you compare titles. Those guys have the balls in their hands the entire game its completely diff. Basketball one player can take over a game by himself and win at times. Like LBJ did in the ECF vs the pistons. D.Wade in the finals vs the mavs.

Anyways im done posting in thread for now dont feel like arguing with the same 5 guys who're in the LBJ fan club. I'll be back after LBJ loses the finals in 6 to take a pee on this debate for a final time and LOLLBJ.

you're arguing about public perception, we're arguing about ability

the whole LeBron dragged bad teams through the playoffs argument has some weight but not as much as people make it out to have. and definitely shouldn't be used as an argument against Jordan. LeBron did drag some bad teams pretty far, but he was dragging these teams past some pretty unremarkable teams (Wizards / Nets / Pistons in those early years). the East has sucked for a decade...

and it's not like Jordan didn't drag his team places. he dragged the bulls to the playoffs his rookie year, and after that season the only teams that ever knocked them out prior to the title runs were historically great. 85-86 Celtic teams and the late 90s Pistons. teams that were much much much better than the 09 Magic

Lebron got more finals MVP votes in a losing effort than Curry, it's laughable that people are trying to use it as an argument for Curry being better

Nobody wants to get into the grey areas but team fit/needs to be taken into consideration.

If I had a bad team and just needed a player to carry it to respectability/contending then I think LeBron is probably the GOAT. But someone like MJ is probably better on the 90s bulls teams that were stacked with good defensive players and just needed elite scoring.

Steph is a good Christian man with a great family, great hair, great personality, and no steroids. His Supporting cast is also much weaker than Jordans or Labron's.

LBJ and MJ are roided bald freaks with narcissistic personality disorders who could only win with huge help from supporting casts. They are, in short, huge losers and frauds.

End of discussion.

Wade played 54 games in 13-14 and 62 games in 14-15. Let's not let facts obscure your LBJ hate tho

Also don't 09-10 forget Cleveland to 10-11 Cleveland. 42 game drop off from a team that was in ECF the year before! 42! So F'ing LOL that D-Rose got the MVP that year. But after the decision the media was super rustled so no way he was getting the MVP that year. Miami went from 47 win team and 3rd in Atlantic getting bounced in first round to Winning 11 more games to 58, 1st in Atlantic, losing in Finals after winning 2 games. Dude's impact is unreal.

He has one win in three series. Then in his fourth year they barely beat the Cavs on an sweet shot by him, then lose 4-1 to the Pistons.

None of his series' were competitive until Scottie came along in his fourth year. It's impossible to know for sure, but how many titles do you think Jordan gets if they never picked up Scotty?

A friendly reminder to all Lebron haters and lovers to watch this video :

agreed, good start.

well, wade is always kinda banged up, fact of the matter is he played more games last year then any year with LBJ sans year 1. his impact on the Heat was certainly a net positive when compared to the years LBJ was there.

Wrong. He played 48 games. 26.7 PER. Great interior defense. Handwaving how good he was is a mistake.

Deng put up his highest PER since 2011 and highest TS of his career while being a good wing defender. Dragic 18.8 PER & 59% TS% in Miami. I know saying they "suck" helps your argument, but it's factually incorrect.

All of these things added up should have put them in a nice position after LBJ's departure. Especially in a "weak conference". The fact that they still lost 17 more games than the previous season shows just how valuable LBJ is to a team.

they went 38-44 his rookie year when they made the playoffs. a year after winning 27 games. you're right though, that's definitely a case of him dragging them through a brutal conference

Ya this seems fair. Although I'd probably rather have Steph on those 90's Bulls teams than MJ as well .

Yeah Jordan did some dragging but not to the extent of LeBron. That '07 team, East or not had zero business being in the NBA Finals. Zero! That was all LeBron. That Pistons team he got through in '07 was really f'ing good. They were in their 5th straight conference finals, and their last 3 seasons were Title - Lose Finals in 7 - lose in conference finals. They were an establishment and 'Bron beat them by himself. And then there was the Game 5, still the most ridiculous playoff/high leverage performance that I've ever seen. He leaves the Cavs in '10 and they have a 42 game win drop off! So yeah Mike had some tough sledding for awhile but he actually got help relatively quick. Mike still GOAT but he didn't have to drag teams the way LeBron did.

FYP

Yes I agree. Full seasons of Dragic, Deng, Whiteside, Wade playing 74 games (more than he ever did with LBJ besides '10-'11) while adding Justice Winslow & Josh Richardson is still a pretty decent step down from just having LBJ and Bosh for an extra 29 games (he played 53 this year, they were 29-24 in said games). Pretty insane.

I guess I don't have to post if you're going to keep making my points for me.

Miami still has a basketball team. They were 1 game away from the econf finals this season with a hurt Whiteside and -Bosh again.