we're talking about 2 high-scoring ball-dominators (losing brands) playing each other, so I should've realized it would be more of a stalemate and some lucky plays might end up being the difference.

All my criticisms against SGA apply to Luka even more.. I mentioned that

regardless, neither SGA or Luka will win a title without a super-team or simply more help than they currently have - this is based on the most prominent high-scoring ball-dominator (Lebron)

^^^^ he needs a huge running start

many guys do that once in a while with a running start, but MJ could also have that kind of power off a drop-step, or one-step - whatever you want to call it - he smashed over 7-footers as if HE'S a 7-footer himself, aka no running start and palming the ball in your face..

And again, he could operate with that kind of power from closer distances like a big man - no running start.. This allowed him to dunk far more often.. Ant only gets about 70 dunks per year compared to 150 for Jordan in 1988 and presumably a lot more in 87' although we don't have exact data for 87'.. Assuming Jordan was near 200 dunks in 87', that would put him in record-level big man territory, aka Shaq, DeAndre Jordan, etc.

And when MJ dunked on 2 guys or a big poster, there was no need to fall down - he could land on his feet and clap in your face.

In addition to Ant's inability to posterize without a running start, he's poor at paint shots outside the restricted area, which require touch and are aided by longer arms and bigger hands - these are the extension layups that wrap around a long defender, shown earlier.. Ant's shot-making diversity is poor compared to Jordan, the goat shot-maker.. Of course, Ant is a few inches shorter than MJ, so he doesn't try to get all the way to the hole in 1 dribble like MJ or Lebron do whenever possible.. It's an entirely superior caliber of attacking the rim that Ant lacks

but again, mj could generate that power without a running start

Can someone explain what a "ball dominator" is?

Disclaimer - I'm a n00b if that wasn't clear.

Reading the last 2 pages of this thread, it has devolved to a guy LOLing another guy about drop steps, and a HS coach level attitude about form. Does anybody complain about Mahomes' form or Scheffler's form when they are the best in the world at their trade?

And if anybody is trying to compare Edwards to Jokic to advance some kind of argument about something then just give it up bro.

Exactly bro Ant is nowhere near a generational offensive player like Jokic, Curry or MJ.

Ant is a simpleton downhill player searching for a 3 or layup, which isn't 5-man basketball - we saw Ant come out in Game 4 to make up for Game 3, but high volume of his down-hill brand left teammates in the cold...

Otoh, MJ and Jokic can catch the ball anywhere and dominate with wildly diverse shot-making, so they can achieve great stats while maintaining great ball movement, chemistry and brand of ball that elevates teammates.

And that's my new goat criteria - elevating teammates... Everyone said that the Wolves were "too much" for the Nuggets after 2 games but now they're saying Ant needs more help - the issue is that Ant doesn't know how to elevate teammates yet because he hasn't evolved out of his simpleton, down-hill brand (not 5 man basketball)..

Casts play great when the chemistry is great, and Ant simply doesn't know how to foster great chemistry yet.. Most "down-hill" players never learn and need to join opposing franchise players (and the weak brand still mostly loses).

This is about exposing the fact that twog doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to basic basketball fundamentals. How long has twog been droning on about drop steps in this thread? I usually don't pay attention to his gifs but I did this time and I was surprised to see that what twog doesn't know what a drop step is, despite having talked about it for years.

There's a ton wrong with this. First of all, we're talking about different eras - in fact the entire point is that on an absolute basis, Ant can do all these MJ things and does a lot of them better than MJ did, yet MJ was the best basketball player in the world and Ant is maybe like 20th best or something. That tells you a ton about today's era.

Second, I'm talking about young MJ, specifically a 22-year old MJ. Young MJ wasn't remotely close to the best jumpshooter in the game and was also probably not the best player in the world (though he was close). Young MJ also went on to refine his shooting form - his shooting form was great (well for his time and considering that he lived in the midrange) late in his career. One point is that MJ himself came into the league as a fairly unpolished jumpshooter who relied far more on athleticism than clean form and evolved his game to a point where he was known for his jumpshooting.

And this is entirely about how much more advanced today's basketball is - even MJ, a player known for his skill and whose moves would go on to inspire the next generation, wasn't that skilled as a young player by today's standards. Again, this tells you about the information environment of the times and how different things are today. Any 9-year old today can basically learn any basketball move - everything is out there - as long as they are willing to put in the work. This completely changes the game, especially at the youth level.

Historically, players like MJ have been considered ball-dominant (high-usage in general and high iso percentage), but some people also consider time of possession stats (which can be informative but also misleading) since it's available for modern players.

In case anyone's wondering what twog means, he's referring to players that effectively utilize fancy handle and dribble moves to create shots. This class of players, especially if they are wings rather than natural point guards, seems to cause a lot of distress for twog. In twog's mind, doing this is really bad, though somehow post-ups are exempt from this criticism.

He has this weird grudge about modern players who can make something happen with the ball from the perimeter and makes up weird narratives around how it's actually bad that they created these wide open shots or got a clean layup because it took an extra dribble or whatever.

You can also see this in the gifs of MJ that he chooses to post. MJ early on was highly athletic but his handle was a bit shaky and he didn't have a bag, so he was a bit more direct - these are the gifs twog tends to post, presumably since twog can see himself do those types of things (it's easier!). This is also why post-ups are okay, even though they can also take time to set up and have a higher risk of turnover - he can see himself learning the post moves. There are also highlights where MJ (more late career) shows off fancier moves, but twog doesn't like to post those.

It's fairly clear to me that twog's commentary on this topic is entirely about his own limitations as a player. He's a 6-7 forward that couldn't cut it in college (scored a total of 4 points from what he's shared) that was supposedly super athletic (but very skinny from what he shared) that he got a D1 scholarship despite being marginal in high school. This likely means twog was extremely limited from a skill perspective and his coaches probably tried to get him to play simple without the ball and encouraged him to be direct when he has the ball to avoid turning over the ball given his non-existent handle. So all this is about him puffing up some idealized version of himself, talking up his own physical attributes and skills he imagines he could have theoretically learned, while criticizing players with physical attributes he didn't have and skills that he can't ever imagine himself developing.

The central narrative here seems to be that not only is MJ the GOAT, but that MJ's GOAT career was fueled by the physical attributes shared by him and MJ and the skill set that he imagines he could've had.

The formula for usage is essentially shot attempts + FTA + turnovers, so usage measures shot attempts.... Klay Thompson could have high usage by simply shooting the ball 30 times, yet his ball-domination would be low... Ball-domination is measured in the actual number of minutes that a player holds the ball in their hands each game - it's a point guard stat since they bring the ball up and use a lot of live-dribbles to set up the offense and run screen-roll action, aka dominate the ball...

The league's most prominent ball-dominators are Lebron, Luka, Harden, Westbrook, SGA, etc, etc, etc.. Point guards will always have a certain level of ball-domination, so that's standard across all teams, but the issue is when Lebron dominates the ball from a frontcourt position - this creates 2 point guard lineups that give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in normal 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and struggles on the championship level.





Off-ball players allow the ball to move but it requires expert jumpshooting skill and/or great power off 1 step, so the player can finish quickly upon the catch without requiring setup time or ball-domination:

Look at the touch required to be an expert jumpshooter that can play off-ball and without ball-domination - rookie MJ had this touch:

Look how rookie MJ could go to the post and SEAL HIS MAN to enable an entry pass and drop-step - it's perfect individual offense enabled by post fundamentals and goat power off 1-step - again, since MJ could score like this, he could get 40 while teammates are assisting him instead of getting 40 in a down-hill fashion that isn't 5-man basketball:

Look how MJ can operate out of the triple-threat position (pre-dribble, stationary position), which lessens the dribbling and ball-domination:

Look how MJ shreds the defender within a second of catching the ball - no ball-domination or "down-hill" skillset needed:

Look at MJ's quick instinct and expert jumpshooting skill, and hang-time - it seems simple but NO ONE has it like this:

^^^^ When you can score like that (off-ball), you don't have to use a "down-hill" skillset that isn't 5 man basketball and therefore lacks the chemistry to elevate teammates... "Down-hill" skillset is necessary sometimes, but a steady diet of it will impose spot-up roles too much and get predictable... Ant will lose the last 3 games of this series just like Lebron did for nearly all of his playoff losses - opponents figure out the "down-hill" skillset (AAU-brand) and then they can't lose thereafter.

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Btw, 22-year old Kobe was champion, 1st option over peak Shaq against the Spurs, and BETTER than 22-year Ant in literally every aspect of the game

Ant vs 24' Nuggets........... 30/5/5

Kobe vs 01' Spurs............. 33/7/7
Shaq vs 01' Spurs............. 27/13/3

Ant could never be 1st option over peak Shaq... It's absurd.. Since Ant doesn't even match up to 22-year Kobe, he's nowhere near Mr. 63 and "god in basketball shoes" Michael Jordan..

This series is showing that there are GENERATIONAL offensive players like Jokic/Curry/MJ and then everyone else.. Ant is several tiers below in the "down-hill" tier of simpleton skillsets and perennial losers (Luka, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, SGA, Ant, etc, etc)...

So it looks like we're running out of guys to put in the thread title... Ant's weaknesses have been exposed as a typical "down-hill" player that always "needs more help" because the media is too dumb to understand his skillset is bad at chemistry.

lol @ thinking Kobe was the 1st option over Shaq.

Twog hating on Ant is a pretty huge tell as to how much of this is about puffing up an imaginary version of himself vs supporting MJ. Because Ant in many ways is an ideal, modern version of MJ, so MJ lovers should be all over him, assuming they loved the things MJ brought to the table. But his handle is just too good and his body too well-built for twog to relate.

So twog has to belittle Ant in a way that makes him look good. Instead of being well-built and powerful, he's short, even though he's probably around the same height or taller than MJ, because twog was tall but not well-built. Likewise, instead of Ant having incredible on-ball skills that help him look MJ-like but in a modern way, he dribbles too much and dominates the ball, because well, twog couldn't handle the ball, so you see, being too good with the ball is actually a bad thing.

I enjoyed the whole diatribe from twog about how LeBron must be on steroids because of his legs.

Sounded like it came from someones who's never done squats in his life.

Yeah, at this point, we pretty much solved twog. MJ had plenty in his bag so it's weird to me that twog was obsessed with really simple things that MJ did well. But it makes a lot more sense if you realize that twog is taking the compliments he got from his coaches over the years (whether his physical attributes or partial ones based on his hypothetical skills, i.e. if you just did X & Y, you'd be unstoppable), realizing that they could also be applied to MJ and inventing an entire narrative around how MJ became the GOAT largely due to the traits MJ shares with him.

He was in 2001 against the Spurs and 2002 against the Kings - the "real" Finals.. Some of the best versions of Kobe.. It's like a joke watching his diverse highlights and the many looks that he gave defenses vs Ant's basic down-hill seeking of 3' and layups (not 5-man basketball)... This weaker chemistry is why Ant can't elevate an All-NBA guy like KAT, while Kobe took a 1x all-star like Pau who was in his 7th season, and made him perennial All-NBA

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The calves are the telltale sign because most people with bird calves like Tmac, MJ, or young Lebron keep those bird calves their entire career.. Lebron is the only guy that went from bird calves to tree trunks

Add PED's = tree trunk calves:

Wowzers... #checkmycalves





It wasn't about the quads - it was about the calves and ankles - his calves went from sticks (Tmac) to tree trunks (Karl Malone).. that isn't from squats - see the comparison above.. Btw, I got this tip about calves remaining the same size from the goat himself, Ronnie Coleman

Most modern players are infact "down-hill" players that seek 3's and layups

but this isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't produce the elite chemistry required to elevate teammates and have well-performing supporting casts, aka good teams.

Ant follows this modern template, which isn't "the next MJ" because MJ was like the rare GOATS of this era like Curry or Jokic, who aren't down-hill players - they're generational offensive talents, so they yield the best chemistry that elevates teammates to great role play and therefore dynasty team performance.. This is the opposite of the typical modern "down-hill" player that "needs more help" because they can't produce the chemistry needed to elevate teammates.

carry on.. it's actually a massive media flaw where they should blame players for not elevating teammates and generating sufficient chemistry, instead of simply saying they need more help.. The media encourages players to be talent-based winners (all-star team strategy), rather than improve their skillset to produce better chemistry like Curry's teams, or Jokic and MJ's teams.. They got better to win (improved chemistry) - they didn't just "get more help" (talent-based winning)... Curry learned to win with Wiggins and Poole for goodness sake - he did this by developing great chemistry with them - he never asked for "more help"

In MJ's case, he generates goat chemistry and ball movement by being an off-ball player that can finish off-the-catch with goat power off 1 step like he's a big man, or via expert jumpshooting skill and moving off-screens.. Ant lacks all of this.. His shot-making diversity if he doesn't get all the way to the cup is literally bad compared to MJ's goat shot-making ability and diversity.

Jesus Christ get some ****ing help bro.

I have to point out that there's a major flaw in NBA media that hurts the NBA product significantly... By blaming all losses on "needing more help", today's media promotes talent-based winning (all-star team strategy), which discourages players from developing the chemistry needed to have well-performing casts.

So even though everyone thought the T-Wolves were "too much" for the Nuggets after 2 games, everyone is saying Ant needs more help now that they're losing.. However, a cursory glance at Ant highlights shows that he seeks 3's and layups via a down-hill skillset, which isn't 5-man basketball, and therefore cannot produce the chemistry needed to have a well-performing cast, aka great team..

Since the media says that Ant simply needs more help, they're effectively discouraging him from working to improve the team's chemistry.. Accordingly, Ant will probably not work to develop expert jumpshooting skill off screens or quick moves upon the catch that can foster better ball movement because the media says he simply needs more help - so he'll probably just tell management to get more help and continue to think his down-hill skillset is sufficient...

We've seen this for 21 years from Lebron - he always needs more help - it's never that his team simply needs to get better (improve chemistry).. Lebron prefers the media's talent-based approach because his skillset is inherenty suboptimal - his ball-dominant approach imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).
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FWIW comparing Jokic' game 5 performance playing against current and 4-time DPOY, vs. the established greatest playoff game performance. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide which is greater.

Squats build calves? Not really. Calf raises and recumbent bike yes, not standard squats. Jumping squats maybe, but that's not the same exercise as squats.

In this thread a guy who has 4 finals MVPs gets referred to as a 'perennial loser like Harden and Westbrook'

No he wasn't.

You've cheery picked two series, and one of those series Shaq averaged 30/14/2 vs Kobe's 27/6/4, while shooting more than 10% better from the field.

I think that's Lebron's Game 6 in the 2016 Finals - what makes that performance arguably the greatest has to do with the circumstances and the ultimate outcome, not sure why we're comparing a conference semi Game 5 (which wasn't an elimination game for either team) against a fairly random playoff team to that one on a purely statistical basis. I'm pretty sure Lebron's had 29+ BPM playoff games before. I'm sure a bunch of other people have had one of those as well. Also Gobert isn't some amazing 1-on-1 defender that was specifically asked to guard Jokic, his accolades have to do with his tremendous impact on the overall team defense, not sure what that has to do with anything.

This reminds of that time when people thought KD's 49-point game against the Bucks was some kind of a career-defining moment for KD in 2021 and I correctly pointed out that it's not that big of a deal unless the Nets end up winning. No one cares now.

Twog, before Phil Jackson installed the triangle and reined in MJ, was MJ lauded for being an off-ball player whose style was all about helping the team win and improve the team chemistry, or perhaps was he criticized for being a ball hog that takes too many shots in a way that makes it difficult for the rest of the team to get in rhythm?

Also, when Phil Jackson wanted MJ to play off-ball more in a system to give everyone a chance to touch the ball, was MJ's first reaction like, whoa that's great, I love playing that way, I'm all about sharing the ball and winning. Or was his reaction more like, you know what, I like it better when I have the ball in my hands.

It's not disputable that at the same age, Anthony Edwards plays much more in the flow of the offense than MJ did. MJ was extensively criticized for turning the rest of the team into "Jordanaires" that were just watching MJ do his thing because the way he played marginalized the rest of the team. This was a constant theme in how MJ was evaluated before Phil Jackson took control over the offense - that MJ was flashy and amazing individually but he doesn't get others involved enough like Magic & Bird and his actual impact was likely much lower than those that did and also lower than it would be if he lowered his usage and involved everyone else more. And they were proven right - the triangle reduced his usage and the team got better, despite MJ resisting it at first.

Meanwhile, no one could reasonably accuse Anthony Edwards of playing in a way that marginalizes the rest of the team.

Anyway, this was all over the news media at the time. So twog, were you illiterate in the 80's or did you just not follow basketball or MJ much back then?