No one really believes Ant is the second coming of MJ. Don't take the bait.

No idea but all I know is the Jazz beat a similar younger team then the spurs 2013-14 and they win both time .

As for the Heat the Jazz beat early prime shaq surrounded by 3 all stars !
Correction swept …

What was the argument again ?

They were far better then what you alluded here ….
Ps: and again the Jazz did best the spurs 4-1 in 98 and Duncan was on that team .
A Duncan 98 was certainly better then Duncan in 2014 .
A team that actually won the title just the year after .

FWIW every all time great did end up vs all time great team .
Some just got extremely lucky for never having to face 2 all time great team in their own conference for years like Tim Duncan and MJ had to face ….
That is why personally I rather emphasis on accomplishments instead of failure .

Fallguy comparing prime MJ to 22 yo Edwards.

Amazing.

Fallguy - How much Edwards have you watched?

I don’t think anyone would argue that the first three years of Edward’s career were better than Jordan’s dude. That said, he’s taken a big leap this year and has a good chance to be the best player on a finals team.

You’ve written thousands of words on why MJs scoring and play style lead to winning and Lebrons doesn’t. At this point, which is Edwards more similar to?

I compared them at 22 years old here:

The GIF's posted earlier showed rookie or 2nd-year Jordan, and also Jordan's vastly superior stats at 22 years old (previous post)..

So now the issue is that Edwards won 57 games this year WITHOUT ACHIEVING A 20 PER, so he currently has far more help than any point in MJ's career - that's the point.

Clearly, the difference in casts is enormous between someone that needed 35/6/6 and DPOY to win 50 games, and a someone that didn't even need a 20 PER to win nearly 60..

Again, it was KAT's team until 2023, so comparing Ant to Jordan doesn't work because we're ignoring how much easier Ant's path is - Ant has a developed, 4th-year team by age 22, while MJ had a 1st year lottery team at 22.




You're basically saying: "Ant had 4 years to develop his team, so let's compare this to Jordan's 1st year, so then we can say 22-year Ant is winning more than 22-year Jordan.".. .

smh.. that's some bron-fan logic but don't worry because I'm getting ready to hop on the Ant bandwagon since it furthers MJ's GOAT standing... aka "mini-MJ" swept the team that owns Lebron - pretty good narrative imo.. And having an MJ-like shooting guard be the face of this league and without elite threes - it speaks volumes about what the real MJ would do - most people think he would have multiple 40 ppg seasons.




How much MJ have you watched?... How can you compare Ant's shot-making ability to his?... There isn't a single aspect of basketball where Jordan isn't superior and shot-making is probably among the biggest skill gaps.

You guys make a big deal about guys that are "good" and say they're as good as Jordan, but none of these guys are hitting the league like a tsunami the way Jordan did - none of them are as good as Jordan.

Again, Ant won 57 games this year and he didn't even have a 20 PER - MJ would 3-peat with his help

.
contested shot-making in the 6 to 12 foot range:

arm-extension-type layups that shorter guys with shorter arms and smaller hands can't do at any point in their career:

Who are the top 3 expert jump shooters in the game today?

michael jordan

It's funny that twog's MJ highlights always end up highlighting MJ's faults rather than strengths. MJ's finishing at the rim was obviously limited by the fact that he couldn't finish through contact very well, so you see all these attempts to dodge the contact, which leads to worse shots. MJ's vision wasn't that great and wasn't a willing passer especially early in his career, so you see him putting up contested prayers when he had multiple open teammates. MJ was also somewhat limited in terms of his ability to get separation through clean footwork or get past defenders with crisply executed moves (especially early on and compared to modern players), so you see him struggle to get past the defender in situations where a modern player could have easily done so and also put up a terrible improvised shot (which isn't particularly demonstrative of skill, lots of terrible players do this all the time) where a modern star wing would've created a clean step-back or a fadeaway.

One other thing that's easy to miss is that MJ is smaller (in terms of bulk) and is playing against smaller players (so his smallness is less of a handicap) than modern players. This means everyone looks more athletic than they actually are.

Again, this isn't fair to MJ because he didn't get to learn how to play basketball in a world where 8-year olds are able to see every single basketball move that's ever been invented and watch videos teaching them exactly how to replicate it. But here twog is talking as though somehow MJ was better at the fundamentals than modern star players, when it's really not that close.

i dk man i was doubting MJ's goatness but i just witnessed 6 gifs of him making shots across his career and am pretty sure that seals the deal

If I had to pick one scoring skill that encompassed the greatest combination of effectiveness against all defenses, degree of difficulty, and skill, it would be the turnaround jumper.. If someone has mastered the footwork, muscles and movements for a turnaround, they probably have a bunch of other kinds of jumpers that they can get off in polished/mastered/seamless fashion..

So even though the turnaround jumper isn't used as much today, I would still pick out the best jumpshooters and sort by turnaround.. the exception is Curry, who's 3ball is the best ever.

Sort by turnaround jumper between Brunson, Booker, Durant, Tatum, Maxey, Kyrie, Derozan, Kawhi, Jamal Murray, Ingram, McCollum, Derrick White and whoever else has a great jumper... I think Tatum, Brunson, Kyrie and KD have great turnarounds, so I'll start with them, quite possibly in that order now that KD is older.

There's tons of guys I missed like white guys and euros because for some reason I just haven't seen highlights of that many good-scoring white guys although I know they exist in the league.. Jokic and Luka obviously but I hesitate to call a guy like Luka an expert jumpshooter when he can't come off screens.

Btw, there's tons of lesser guys like Jordan Poole, who has a sick bag but he stopped getting better and has been left behind, while Michael Porter Jr is probably one of the most naturally-talented players and shooters of this era but he hasn't taken that leap.. Now's his chance tbh.

The selection of those gifs is designed to demonstrate the type of shot that Edwards lacks - that's all.. I'm not sure what else you thought the gifs represented - there's obviously a lot more than just those gifs, but the point was to show the type of shot, not every single shot..

Edwards clearly lacks 6 to 15 foot shots that occur in heavy traffic, which require a touch and shot-making diversity that Ant lacks - again, the gifs show these types of shots and a capability that we don't see from Ant... In addition to the tough mid-range gifs, other gifs show the chest-to-chest, extended-arm layups specifically over bigs, that require more length and bigger hands than Ant has.. Ant needs both hands on the ball until the last instant on layups - he can't extend with one arm and sweep around a big like MJ can (see gifs).

Look at the shot that MJ made over Divac to send Game 3 of the 91' Finals into overtime - Ant could never convert a shot like that - that's Tony Parker-like touch on an impossible floater from a 6'6" goat athlete.. Goat athletes like Lebron, Giannis, Dominique, Zion, etc - none have goat touch - MJ is the only goat athlete that was also a goat jumpshooter on 2's or 3's.. His touch and quickness was like a 6'2" player.

Overall, Ant shot 35% from mid-range on no volume this season, and he shot poorly outside the restricted area in the paint (43%) - that's because he lacks the type of shots in those gifs.

What Kobe thinks about


What him thinks about MJ .


And then you have candybar ….
Who to believe I wonder …

I see why McLovin left you off the thread title - you obviously say a lot of dumb stuff.

This was definitely one of the dumber things

I mean, it's a good attempt to turn Jordan's aerial abilities against him by saying he avoided contact but it's so obviously untrue like saying the sky is pink - MJ was the best at drawing fouls at the rim and AND1's... Are you trying to get me to post AND1 gifs?... Because no one has better AND1's in history - the best combination of brute power coupled with goat finesse and hang-time in the history of the game...

Magic said "his strength is like a big man's.. He's the strongest guard - I'm talking about body-wise - to ever play".. (here)...

Jordan had big-man hands and the goat drop-step for a non-big man outside of maybe Dr. J.. He was devastating when you fouled him and you had to actually try to HURT him to stop him... I don't remember Bill Russell or Hakeem saying they were literally trying to HURT wilt or shaq... But listen to Rodman and Salley say that the goal was to literally hurt MJ - "we tried to physically hurt Michael"... (here).. Only the goat requires that level of attention.

Why would Rodman and Salley try to HURT jordan if he was a weak little twig?.. Perhaps he was infact the strongest guard to ever play - BODY-wise, like Magic said.




Another false narrative - young Jordan averaged equal assists to Lebron and more in the playoffs, while everyone grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan and achieved their career highs, so all those crazy shots were still necessary..

That's just how bad his roster was because Jordan didn't enter the league with the East all-star center on his team like Lebron... He also didn't add a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender before entering his first playoffs as a 3rd year high seed - Jordan entered the playoffs in Year 1 as a rookie low seed with nothing.

Again, Jordan passed more than Lebron thru half their chips or thru the first 9 years of their playoff careers - Lebron didn't start averaging more assists than MJ in the playoffs until Curry's spacing era made offense easier from 2015 onwards.



This must be one of the dumbest things that you've ever said in your entire LIFE

Literally no one in the history of the game got by defenders better or easier than Jordan, which is why he didn't need to dominate the ball and use a lot of live dribbles to get by guys like today's players need.

smh, wow




MJ had a great step back - better than today's players, even though they didn't allow the travel step-back like they allow today.. You just haven't watched MJ if you don't think he used a step-back frequently - he did - all the time - his game-winner over Russell was a step-back... And he has the goat fadeaway.. Seriously, wtf are you talking about..

I think these series of statements is the worst post you ever had..

Magic Johnson:

"Jordan's strength is like a big man's... He's the strongest guard - I'm talking about body-wise - to ever play"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSPo7lPyAlc&t=75s

If Jordan and Edwards were skeletons, Jordan's would be bigger due to bigger bone structure like longer arms, legs, hands, and superior neck/shoulders, including being more ripped - Jordan's muscle was better muscle despite being skinnier and having more capacity to add muscle optimally than Edwards, who is already bulky.

And I don't remember Hakeem or Bill Russell saying they were trying to physically hurt Shaq or Wilt... So if Jordan was such a skinny twig, then why did the Pistons openly say on TV that they were trying to physically hurt Jordan (here)???... I'm guessing that Magic was right - Jordan's strength was like a big man's and he was the strongest guard to ever play.

Thank god that title has been changed

I mean this is crazy talk.

Anyway. I've probably watched 200 MJ games.

I'll ask again. How many Any games have you watched?

Wow, Jordan was an absolutely *terrible* decision maker.

Not talking about and-1's - there's more to finishing through contact than drawing and-1's. We already know that MJ wasn't very good at finishing at the rim - he played 4 seasons in the PBP era and his shooting percentage at the rim (within 3 feet) in those four seasons (keep in mind, this is after MJ consciously bulked up specifically to better handle contact):

96-97: .524
97-98: .644
01-02: .615
02-03: .614

Anthony Edwards on the other hand:

20-21: .647
21-22: .658
22-23: .674
23-24: .707

And again, this matches what we know about MJ from watching him - he was a good slasher but not a particularly efficient finisher. I don't even think Ant is that good at finishing at the rim (he's fairly MJ-like in this regard) by today's standards. Don't bother looking at Lebron's stats, it can't be good for your health.

I mean even you can't be this dense - obviously they were being physical because he was like a twig. This isn't even disputed - even MJ thought he needed to bulk up to better handle the physical defense and did. You don't see teams try to do this on Shaq or Lebron, but teams try to do this on Curry and KD. You'd think this is obvious but apparently not to you.

Not seeing that in your gifs - looks like a guy that's struggling to get past (really bad) defenders and putting up terrible shots as a result.

What good is a move if you can't execute it when you need it? Again, you literally have no idea how to watch tape. You're also confusing the timeline - MJ got better at these skill moves over time and kept adding to his bag, he wasn't capable of executing these at Ant's age and frankly wasn't really much of a jump shooter at all. By today's standards, he was very raw and relied heavily on his athleticism. Literally any super athlete can do the types of stuff that you posted and it will work some of the time, the entire point of all these basketball moves is to avoid having to do that and set up a consistent shot. Your basketball ignorance astounds me, Mr 4 points in college.

You should perhaps ask your grandchildren to fix your computer since that didn't work. Maybe you have a virus. I'm also not sure why I should care what Kobe or "him" thinks.

Also, do you ever have any original thoughts or does everything you post come down to something you heard somewhere that you're misinterpreting?

At-rim percentage is era-specific - we're talking packed paints of previous eras vs today's open paints, so it's impossible to compare at rim percentages, but Ant trails MJ significantly at every other distance if you want to post all the distances

and again, the gifs shown earlier, paint shots that aren't right at the rim - Ant stinks at those because he lacks the shot-making diversity and touch required - old Jordan was far better at these paint shots outside the restricted area due to touch and shot-making diversity - your stats shows this.

Also, Ant's at-rim percentages trail 1st-three-peat Jordan despite the era disadvantage that MJ still faced (packed paints) and taller players (average height was 1 inch greater in the 80's and 90's than now).. MJ's at-rim percentage in 92' was 75% or something according to posting legend PHILA (here)

So everything in my previous posts on this page stands.. carry on

this is gold thank you