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Based on the historical record of Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles compared to the great ball movement allowed by Jordan's expert jumpshooting skill:

* Lebron can't have a winning record on the championship level. Jordan can

* Lebron can't make teammates better. Jordan can

* Lebron can't develop good teammates. Jordan can

* Lebron can't have great ball movement and high assist teams. Jordan can

* Lebron can't have #1 offenses. Jordan can (with no scoring help)

* Lebron can't have "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, such as Curry winning 3 in 4 years or Duncan winning 3 in 5

* Lebron can't carry weak help over top teams (can't beat top 5 SRS or Finals teams with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick).. Jordan routinely carried weak help over top teams.

Lebron can't defeat max defensive attention (can't carry scoring load on the championship level. Jordan did it 6 times as much as anyone else.

* Lebron's skillset of high-scoring ball-domination decreases his teammates' assists and increases their assisted rate (turns them into spot-up shooter), while Jordan's expert jumpshooting skill could dominate while playing off teammates, thereby allowing great ball movement and brand of ball that wins the attrition battle.

All I did was take adjacent seasons where the players you mentioned played with/without Jordan. It’s probably not the best idea to extrapolate beyond that because a hundred other things can affect scoring average (aging for one. Completely different team dynamics another.)

Is there any data suggesting Jordan’s teammates’ scoring average goes down when playing with him while LeBron’s goes up? It should a little bit just because Jordan averaged more ppg, but like, that’s a good thing as long as he had good efficiency (he did). Still be interesting to see the data tho bc typically playing with an ultra elite scorer makes things easier for those around him. Less defensive pressure.

If you post less than 5000 words in a day, I'm disappointed. I like the satisfaction of scrolling right past it.

Except the stuff where you prop Kobe up to #2 all time. That stuff is worth reading.for the lols.

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1992 Pippen..... 21.0 and 7.0 apg... 55.5 ts
1994 Pippen..... 22.0 and 5.6 apg... 54.4 ts




1994 confirmed that Pippen's peak capability was 22 ppg, which was the same as the 19-21 ppg with greater assists and better efficiency that he averaged alongside MJ... In contrast to teammates playing to capacity alongside the expert jumpshooting skill of MJ, Kobe and Curry, dozens of Lebron or Luka's teammates were cratered by their high-scoring ball-domination and subsequent imposition of spot-up roles..

So the historical record shows that there was nothing wrong with Jordan's game because teammates grew by leaps and bounds alongside him (goat teammate development) and teammates played to capacity (goat chemistry).. The goat chemistry was due to Jordan's goat scoring diversity that fit with every teammate or system.




JR Smith averaged those exact stats except better true shooting alongside Melo in the 08' Playoffs against Kobe (2nd goat).

Secondly, Jordan developed pippen into an 18 ppg player, while Lebron was handed an 18 ppg player - JR Smith averaged 18/5/3 as 6MOY in New York before joining Lebron and had the aforementioned 18 on 69 ts alongside Melo..

Everyone knows that JR Smith is one of the most talented "what if's" in NBA history, aka what if his head was screwed on right.. Lebron was always gifted great talents but never developed players, which contrasts with Jordan's record of goat teammate development - all the best players that 80's Jordan played with grew astronomically, such as Pippen, BJ, Horace, Oakley and Woolridge, whereas no one grew into meaningful producers on Lebron's watch because his skillset of high-scoring ball-domination imposes spot-up roles (decreases his teammates' assists and increases their assisted rate).

Most of the best guys that Jordan played with played to capacity alongside him (near career highs), while most of the best players that Lebron played with cratered alongside him (Love, Bosh, Kuzma, Ingram, Wade, IT, Clarkson, Jamison, Hughes, Westbrook)... There's no comparison - Lebron has bad fits and Jordan doesn't.. And we know the reason for the bad fits - high-scoring point guard play (ball-domination) imposes spot-up roles and weaker chemistry, development, strategy and winning.

Armstrong was already in the list I posted first 0o
Maybe you didn’t read it much ?

Not cherry picking lol.
I used the main starter except Rodman which was irrelevant in the scoring topic shrug

No you didn’t !
Harper role changed when mj wasn’t there in 95 and he could never do better afterwards with or without mj . Many suggest injury based .
how the hell is mj fault ????

Again Cartwright last year before he joined the bulls was at 11ppg and just kept his descending trend on scoring already and he couldn’t do better even with more shot and playing time ?

Kukoc
Only reason he did better he was a starter those 2 years he did better but he never did better without mj with the same bench role .

Please find me 1 player ….where the changes would exceed like 1basket …

The only players that had better years before joining the bulls in scoring were already finish and couldn’t do better with or without mj .

That’s fine but why didn’t they have more attempt or more scoring without mj then ?

Furthermore people should stop thinking lebron gives the ball so much ….
Career FGA:
Lebron 19.6
Kobe 19.5
Duncan 14.6
Dirk 15.6
Steph 17.9
Luka 20.7
Shaq 16.1
Jokic 14.5 (amazing imo)
KD 18.7
Kareem 18.1
Bird 19.3
Wade 16.7

It’s like LeBron IS taking a lot of shot too …

If you remove the years where Kobe wasn't a superstar player (1st 3 years and last 3 years), his FGA per game from age 22-34 was 22.4

Jordan's career FGA was 22.9

So yes, Lebron shot 3 FGA per game less than those guys. That's significant and the rest of the guys you listed aren't particularly relevant. Curry is also a guy whose first 3 years should be removed. Remove the years where Shaq wasn't a superstar and his relevant FGA is actually 19.3. it's silly to include the seasons where players had significantly different roles. Lebron and Jordan were 1st options playing full time minutes in every year of their career, but most other guys weren't. Dirk and Duncan also go up by 2 FGA/G when removing the years when their usage and minutes were decreased. From age 22-33 Kareem averaged 20.8 and then his usage significantly decreased. And from age 22-28 he averaged 22.8 per game. From age 23-33 Wade averaged 18.1 and then his usage declined.

Vince Carter averaged 13.8 per game for his career, but as a star player from age 23-30 he averaged 20.2

Still lebron is not far from taking huge amount of shot AND he always got the ball in his hands …..

what was the point in all of this ?
let’s say in all mj career you find one or 2 players that instead having 10-11 ppg they would had 12-13 ppg .
Who the f cares ….you don’t count on them to put the balls in their hands to win championships.
They are great role players but mj got the max juice pretty much from all of them .
Not being able to exceed (with maybe one or 2 exception by 1 baskets) their performance without mj says it all for me .

Mj push them to be winners more then anything and mj still played in the triangle system .
Anyway shouldn’t the greatest scorer (or close to it) be one of the players having the most field goal attempt ?

if I pay a guy 40 millions a year and a guy 10 millions a year , which players I expect to have the ball in the 4th quarter ?

You know what maybe I should check what happens when players join lebron if they actually do have their best years playing with him ?

MJ's teammates played at or near career highs/capacity alongside him, while many of Lebron's teammates played far below capacity alongside him.

Kuzma and Ingram saw 1-year drops across the board in 2019 (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48), while Jamison, Westbrook, IT, Love, Hughes, Bosh and many more were also cratered.

One guy allows the ball to move and great strategic capacity/coaching, while the other guy is uncoachable and has a coaching carousal - he imposes spot-up roles via his version of "luka-ball" and then acts surprised when this rudimentary brand can't viably compete on the championship level (22-33 and -86).

Always great when IT's 15 game sample size makes an appearance.

Wade/Davis/Russell all did just fine with Lebron. Kuzma and Ingram just saw decreased usage, similar to what they'd probably experience playing with Jordan. Westbrook and Jamison were washed up just like Harper or Cartwright was washed up with Jordan. Bosh and Love when from being number 1 options on weak teams to being number 3 options. Larry Hughes numbers with Lebron really don't stand out much from the type of player he always was. He had a couple of slightly better years, but he also had several worse years.

But please repeat yourself for another 5000 words. It was nice to look up these examples and see how empty all of them actually are.

Just admit your entire argument is fueled by an irrational hatred of Lebron and then move on with your life.

329 words:


The horrible fit of Wade and Lebron caused the goat choke in 2011, which caused the "not 6, not 7" expectation to become 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - it was the worst anyone can do... People don't understand that Lebron is an abnormal ball-dominator because he starts at forward, whereas a normal ball-dominator and great shooter like Nash would fit better with Wade/Bosh and win more with them.. Unfortunately, Nash didn't get to team up in his prime - only Lebron did and it yielded a record 6 straight preseason favorites until KD finally responded.

And there's no excuse for Ingram and Kuzma decreasing as young players BEFORE they hit their prime, when Pippen increased every year UNTIL he hit his prime - that's how young player development works, but Lebron imposes spot-up roles, so he never developed a single young player in 21 years - zero young players grew from low-producer to meaningful producer on his watch in 21 years.

So your opinions have become misguided by trying fit them into the Klutch Sports propaganda that you follow.

To fit with Lebron, you must be an elite shooter (Mo, Kyrie, Russell), or simply be BETTER than lebron - AD fit with Lebron because he was better at the time they teamed up - he lifted a lottery team to champion by leading the Lakers in scoring and turning the defense from worst to first - it's literally a GOAT season that AD gets no credit for...

To summarize all this - in spite of nitpicking here and there on a case-by-case basis, the fact remains that ONLY LEBRON has a long list of bad fits like Bosh, Wade, Love, Ingram, Kuzma, Westbrook, Hughes, IT, Clarkson, Jamison, and many more.. This is due to a skill deficit - high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron impose spot-up roles, which prevents the elite chemistry and teammate development that expert jumpshooters allow (Curry, Kobe, MJ), who can play OFF teammates instead of dominating the ball excessively.

Still going on about Westbrook, Jamison, and IT.

I guess Kobe ruined Howard and Nash. As well as Malone, Payton, and Mitch Richmond.

Hughes played about 100 games with LeBron. I'm taking the over 100 on number of posts from FG with stats about Hughes.

Jordan ruined Parish.