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MJ dunked on Hakeem many times but Hakeem was scared to jump and visibly COWERED every time:

MJ had many tip dunks over Hakeem

Anyone that doesn't think Luka would do this to Hakeem doesn't know basketball:

Since rim-protecting bigs can be brought away from the rim and nullified, they're often obsolete in today's format,.. With bigs out of the equation, MJ is the greatest defender ever by virtue of transferring over eras better.

Btw, there's a drop-step poster on Hakeem from 89' or 90' that I can't find but it's the coldest one yet.. Will post when I come across it
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hakeem sure looks super quick and light on his feet... smh... ... hakeem was a CLUNKY mf...

2014 ECF

Lebron......... 22.8 on 56%
Wade........... 19.8 on 55%


2014 ECF - Clutch-Time Stats

Wade............ 4.5 pts on 80% (2.0 for 2.5 fga)
Lebron.......... 4.5 pts on 50% (1.5 for 3.0 fga)

^^^ Wade was great in the 2014 ECF by virtue of being equal-scoring partner to Lebron and the "closer" (shown above) - he was an all-star from 2011-2016 and nearly carried the Heat to the 16' ECF after Lebron left, despite being old at that point.

So Wade simply had a bad series in the 14' Finals, and that's the critical issue because MJ STILL WON WITH THAT - it's just another distinction between MJ and Lebron - MJ routinely beat top teams with bed-wetting sidekicks, while Lebron never did.. Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS or Finals teams with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, and he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried the scoring load on the championship level).

Wasn't this basically put to rest in 2011 and just became more obvious over time? Too much number crunching itt. Jordan is unparalleled and you all know it. I can't imagine that anyone arguing for LeBron is new to the debate. It has to be people who took that stance years ago and refuse to admit defeat.

I voted for Jordan in whatever year I voted. By about 2018 I had changed my mind and probably would vote Lebron since then.

But I don't mind the idea of Jordan as GOAT at all. It's a valid opinion. But Lebron is definitely the best player of the post Jordan era. And yet the guy who makes 90% of the posts in this thread thinks Kobe is #2 all time and has Lebron at something like number 11. That's what 90% of the posts in this thread are actually about now.

You can make the argument that LeBron isn't the best post Jordan era player (I'd disagree), but Kobe isn't the one I'd make a case for.

Kobe has a strong case for 15th GOAT to be fair.

Practically every celebrity at some point said Diddy's parties were the best. Diddy was given the key to New York city and there was a holiday in Miami named after him. I'm guessing that happened when he was on the Heat?

For many years, it was understood that excessive ball-dominance was bad, which is why ball-handlers in the 80's and 90's like Isiah, Magic, Penny, or Hill averaged 20 ppg instead of 30 like today's ball-handlers.

The high-scoring, point guard skillset is a recent thing.. It imposes spot-up roles that prevents elite chemistry, so it isn't capable of producing unbeatable teams that mostly win for stretches.. Instead, high-scoring ball-dominance mostly loses regardless of cast and cannot compete effectively on the championship level (22-33 Finals record and -86 plus/minus in the Finals).

Since high-scoring ball-dominators produce the worst chemistry that needs the most help, the best ball-dominators like Magic/Lebron/Oscar rank below the best bigs, who need less help to win (Russell/Wilt/KAJ/Duncan/Shaq)... Both skillsets rank below expert jumpshooters, who produce the best chemistry and need the least help to win (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird,).

The LeBron led Cavs beat the #1 seeded, 60 win Atlanta Hawks in the 2015 Eastern conference finals. The top players for the Hawks in that series:

Paul Millsap
Jeff Teague
DeMarre Carroll
Al Horford
Kent Bazemore
Mike Scott
Kyle Korver
Shelvin Mack

The first paragraph was not a typo. This is the team that won 60 games and was the #1 seed in the Eastern conference that yet. LeBron truly dominated, and made a bunch of finals in a row, in an elite era for the East. He probably would have done pretty well even if he did not team up with the other two best players in the conference.

Jordan's carry-jobs in the 89' and 90' Playoffs are far greater than anything Lebron ever did, since the 6th-seeded Bulls were a rookie cast in 89' that took the Pistons to 6 games, while Lebron's high seeds were decorated veterans that got swept by the 07' Spurs or 18' Warriors.. Lebron's 07' run was invalidated when the Spurs revealed that it was achieved by a 22 on 35% sweepee with 6 turnovers per game, while the 17' and 18' Finals revealed what a joke the East was..

It's amazing that the 00's East was the only conference in history that was won by numerous 1-star teams like Iverson, Kidd, and Dwight, yet this is the conference that Lebron diluted by putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team ("the decision").. By 2018, the conference had been decimated and Lebron was facing teams led by Al Horford and Victor Oladipo instead of Wade, Kyrie and Bosh.. Jordan routinely averaged 40-45 against teams much better than the Horford Celtics, such as Ewing's Knicks in 89' or Barkley's Sixers in 90'.. Or the #1 SRS Cavs in 89.

Ultimately, Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was the only all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd twice)..

Finally, Love averaged 20 ppg on good efficiency against the only top 5 SRS teams that Lebron faced in the 18' Playoffs (Raps, Warriors), so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick... In addition to never carrying weak help over top teams, he never defeated max defensive attention either (never carried scoring load on championship level).. Lebron cannot carry the load vs top teams because he lacks sufficient brand at carry-job volume (too ball-dominant), thereby requiring all-time scoring help - this includes "franchise players" at 2nd and 3rd option.. (aka guys that were asked to build something from scratch and were All-NBA before the winning spotlight of titles).

And yet Kyrie played 2 games, while JR Smith averaged 18 on 66% TS, so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.

In addition to never carrying weak help over top teams, he never defeated max defensive attention either (never carried scoring load on championship level)..

Lebron cannot carry the load vs top teams because he lacks sufficient brand at carry-job volume (too ball-dominant), thereby requiring all-time scoring help - this includes "franchise players" at 2nd and 3rd option.. (aka guys that were asked to build something from scratch and were All-NBA before the winning spotlight of titles).

Ultimately, Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was the only all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd twice)..

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Clear-cut differences between MJ and Lebron:


* MJ could carry weak help over top teams and Lebron can't, aka MJ beat many top 5 SRS or Finals teams with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while Lebron never has.

* Lebron had better casts based on 3 objective metrics: 1) sidekicks that made the Finals without him (Kyrie, Wade)... 2) sidekicks that made All-NBA before joining him, aka before being boosted by the winning spotlight of titles (AD, Wade, Love, Bosh)... 3) sidekicks that destroyed goat-level players like Jokic, Curry, Dirk or young MJ (AD, Kyrie, Wade)

* MJ is the only player in history that built a lottery franchise from scratch to champion as the clear-cut best player from Day 1 - he's the only guy that elevated low-producing rookies to meaningful producers and built a horrific franchise into a household name.. Otoh, Lebron was handed ready-made stars and all-stars from his first years in the league when he missed the playoffs with the East all-star center on his team in 05', lost as a -700 favorite with another all-star in 09', and then mostly lost with super-teams and preseason favorites thereafter.

* Lebron played at the lowest level possible of 35% shooting and 6 TO's per game in two different series (07' Finals, 08' ECSF)

* For Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed 2 franchise players as teammates that included a sidekick that made the Finals without him - both of these things (2 star teammates and a sidekick that made the Finals without him) are objectively more help than MJ needed to win as 1st option.

* MJ could defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level) - he could carry the scoring load because he could maintain sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume to beat top teams - he could drop 40 while the ball moves and teammates assist him, while Lebron's 40 points is ball-domination that reduces teammates to spot-up roles and lacks sufficient brand to beat top teams.

* The common thread ever series loss for the last 10 years of Lebron's playoff career is deficits in team assists (usually massive deficits).. This is due to Lebron's high-scoring ball-dominance, which reduces teammates' assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing), aka turns them into spot-up shooter... Lower teammate assists yields low TEAM assists and a brand that competes at a lottery level in the championship (22-33 record in the Finals).

* Jordan has superior stats than Lebron in PPG, OREB, FT%, turnovers, SPG, BPG, possessions used (usage), efficiency on those possessions (ortg), PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, plus/minus, clutch-time stats, game-winner efficiency.. Otoh, Lebron leads DREB (positional stat), TS (drive-heavy game), and APG (ball-dominance and lower team assists).

* Lebron is probably the all-time leader in turnovers, missed shots, missed FT's, and Finals losses
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Maybe there's a reason nobody was able to put up big offensive numbers while playing with Jordan, and maybe that reason had something to do with how Jordan played.

When JR Smith puts up 18 ppg on 66% TS, its because he was playing with Lebron, and had he been playing with Jordan instead, he never puts up those numbers.

Fair point !
Is it true ?

Pippen top 6 season
22pts ch without MJ
21.4 Ch without MJ
~~~~~~
21. Ch with mj
20.2. Ch with mj
19.4. Ch with mj
19.1. Ch with mj

Well that doesn’t change much beside 1 basket more …

Grant top 6 season
12.5 ch without MJ
11.3. Orlando
10.8 ch with mj
10.7 ch with MJ
10.7. Orlando
10.4. Orlando

Again didn’t change much

Steve Kerr top 5 season
8.6 ch without MJ
8.4 ch with MJ
8.2 ch without MJ
8.1 ch with MJ
7.5 ch with MJ

Again not much of anything

Bj Armstrong top 4 season
14.8 ch without MJ
14 ch without MJ
12.3 ch with MJ
12.3 GSW

Yes big change 1 basket more or the same

Luc longley top 3 season
All Chicago with MJ ….

Well I guess playing with MJ was fine .
Again people seem under appreciate MJ having
“only tiny” 5.3 assist on average
to LeBron “huge” 7.4 assist …