.
Regular Season
Hornacek...... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay'............... 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts
Playoffs
Hornacek...... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay'............... 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore
Lebron won championships with 3 different casts,
True goats like MJ, Kobe, Curry or Russell win titles the majority of the years that they had "help", but Lebron mostly lost when he got help and with every cast... No one should be impressed with a so-called goat that barely wins 1 chip in 4 years each time that he has a stacked squad..
Only the Allen miracle allowed Lebron to do better than 1/4, and 2/4 was still a massive underachievement of the expectation.
To summarize, the many teams that Lebron played for provides sufficient sample to confirm that he can't produce "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, and infact mostly loses regardless of cast.. Lebron's propensity to lose is due to his inherently suboptimal skillset of high-scoring point guard play (ball-dominance), which prevents the best fits, chemistry, strategy and teams... "bron-ball" has the worst record in championship history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore
Wade/Irving/Davis all did just fine and excellent with him.
The goat choke in 2011 occurred because of the bad fit with Wade/Lebron - nuff said.
The only guys that "fit" with Lebron were elite shooters like Kyrie or Mo, and also guys that are simply BETTER than Lebron at the time of the team-up like AD.. Virtually everyone else declined alongside Lebron..
The worst part is that Lebron reduced guys like Love, Kuzma, Hughes, Mo, and Wade to NOTHING by the time Lebron left them, and they had to rebound after he left.. Wade rebounded by nearly carrying the Heat to the ECF in 2016, while Kuzma and Ingram and similarly recovered as well.. Of course Love sacrificed his peak years for bron-ball - bballref shows that his HOF probability was a lock but cratered alongside Lebron - he would've been better off staying in Minnesota and collecting All-NBA awards, MVP finishes, and eventually HOF... He simply isn't viewed as great like he once was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore
Half the time you're ragging on Pippen and the rest of Jordan's cast for giving no help, and half the time you're giving Jordan credit for developing teammates that excelled with him, which is it?
Everyone grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan but their peak capability was still low.. The Bulls probably had the lowest-scoring cast in the league, so MJ essentially raised bum rookies into veteran bed-wetters and won with them, while the winning spotlight gave teammates media accolade.. MJ three-peated with Pippen averaging 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98 Playoffs..
Otoh, Lebron cannot develop anyone and certainly never beat top teams with bed-wetting teammates.. He never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick.. He also never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on the championship level).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore
Oh yeah, of course all your arguments flip flop back and forth to suit whatever nonsense narrative you need to push to satisfy your case, you just hate Lebron with an epic level of passion and all your arguments are built around that hatred.
They're nonsense.
My arguments are statistical facts - Lebron cannot shoot a good percentage on jumpshots at any reasonable volume, so he's forced to rely on ball-dominance... He's actually the first high-scoring point guard (ball-dominator) in 3-pointer history, and this high-scoring ball-dominance turns everyone into spot-up shooter by reducing their assists and increasing their assisted rate.. These spot-up roles prevent the best strategy/coaching, fits, chemistry, and ultimately team ceilings/Finals records.. This is all statistical fact and historical record.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore
Anyone who isn't fueled by hate has Lebron as either 1or 2. You have him outside the top ten.
Before Nick Wright and Klutch Sports employees took the the airwaves in 2018, no one thought Lebron was #2 and there was never any talk of "lebron is #2"... That wasn't a thing.. It only became a thing after the media told you that it was.. So the only people that have Lebron #2 are the lapdogs that believe what they see on TV.. Unfortunately, that's a lot of people.. But fortunately, there are still plenty of clear-thinkers that don't have Lebron #2 or anywhere near - I recommend "Uncut Hoops" or "Angry ol' Hoops" for channels that do not pedestal the media's opinion and see things clearly, but there are a great many channels like these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore
Anyone who isn't fueled by hate has Lebron as either 1or 2. You have him outside the top ten.
Here's the ultimate reason why lebron isn't #2.... If a GM is choosing between all-time producers, it makes sense to go with the player that learned the chemistry required to WIN WITH WHAT THEY HAD, rather than the guy that never learned elite chemistry and only learned "talent-based winning" (all-star team strategy, team-hopping).. Let's flesh this out with real-life examples.
History shows that Jokic learned the chemistry required to win with what he had because he learned how to win with a bum like Murray... Similarly, Curry learned the insane chemistry required to win with a bum like Klay (see stats above)... And of course MJ learned the goat chemistry required to win with a historic bricklayer, low-producer and choker like Pippen.. Otoh, Lebron never learned the chemistry required to win with the bevy of all-stars that he was gifted, such as Zydrunas, Mo, Jamison or Hughes - all of these guys were better than 1990 Pippen when Lebron received them, but he couldn't develop them or win with them - this is statistical fact (see previous post).
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Last edited by fallguy; Yesterday at 09:16 PM.
