We're better than Brazil based on WC results against Germany as sole criteria.

is this where I "well actually" you on that and prove myself to be a humourless german?

do you have any idea what people are talking about here?

Nein

ya, yet another "we suck bc MLS" cryfest


like as far as i can tell, here are the Yank leaders in MLS NPGs+assists last season:

Wondo WOAT apparently, so anyone below The Wondo Line is absolute trash ldo

but if only they were playing in the Latvian league instead, they'd be killing it!
(or at least mediocre enough to not lose to T&T in a must not-lose game)

No it wouldn't. They would all laugh at him. Imagine if STAPS was in the Latvia league not playing in the best league in the world? Nobody cares about MLS. I'd venture to see more people here care about Champions League and the teams that play in it than MLS too

Brazil actually half tried this, playing guys from their domestic league, over guys like Coutinho, Firmino, Douglas Costa, and a few others and it was a complete disaster coinciding with one of the biggest failures in Brazil NT history

I mean, doesn't MLS suck? What are you trying to say here? Cameron is saying players simply can't improve enough in the MLS environment to be competitive in international soccer. Which seems super obvious? If you take a bunch of 21 year old Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey Jrs, Roger Clemens, etc and make them play in the rookie league for 3 years, then put them in the world series, they're going to lose. They're not going to have a chance.

Or, I guess kind of the alternate interpretation of your post is that, well yeah, Altidore is a great MLS player who absolutely can't make it in a decent league. Which, in that case, yeah, US soccer is ****ed forever and who cares. Altidore tried in the Premier League and gave up because of WIL is the fairy tale US soccer apologists tell themselves to make themselves feel better.

man this is a dumb post.

so is Cameron saying that he sucks? because he played in MLS until he was 25

Altidore could absolutely make it in a decent European league, just maybe not the Premier League. but you don't have many guys like him in MLS.


my point was that blaming MLS is weird given that you were beaten out by Panama & Honduras, and lost the pivotal game to T&T. none of those countries are littered with European stars. the bulk of all those rosters are domestic, in leagues much worse than MLS.
(and many of their key players are in MLS)

so how is MLS the problem exactly? it's not. you have way more talent than those countries, but failed. though yes you still need more, much more, if you're going to compete at the top level.

MLS has quotas limiting foreign players, so there is ample opportunity for American players to assert themselves, and push for a move to Europe, if they're good enough. but as i said above, the most productive domestic players last season were Nguyen (31yo), Altidore (28yo), Wondolowski (35yo), Kljestan (32yo), Sapong (29yo), Ramirez (26yo), Dempsey (34yo), Dwyer (27yo), and Bruin (28yo). i imagine the pattern holds true enough for the non-scorepointing positions as well. who is MLS holding back?


so next i guess someone will say that it's MLS' fault for not producing more great players. well, maybe. but those kind of player development questions are the ones people should be asking probably. that's more complicated though. probably has to do with not getting enough elite athletes into soccer, and not valuing the ones they are getting (1st & 2nd gen immigrants, duels, etc). and coaching probably isn't good enough. and so on...


or MLS is the reason you can't beat out Panama & Honduras, and win a key game vs T&T. whatever floats your boat.

I'd like to believe that USA #1 best prospects (i.e. pulisic) are smart enough to try to play in Europe and have zero aspirations to play MLS until they are near retirement age.

and he did (dutch league unless that's not considered "decent"). but, along with him and Bradley, there is some evidence that their skills have really eroded since coming back to MLS from europe when you watch them vs. international competition.

Bradley was never that good

and then he got old

What in the actual f**k

And he's saying if he had stayed in MLS he wouldn't have improved as much as he did. I mean is Pulisic better off in Germany or MLS (Germany, of course).

Right, and Cameron's whole point is that the more you challenge players the better off they are? And that there was a trend of US players going back to the comfort of MLS rather than challenge themselves in Europe? So players backing away from challenging circumstances to play in the ****ty MLS is bad for US soccer. Which seems like a pretty mundane and obvious point?

I think Cameron's point is that the qualification campaign was close when it shouldn't have been. We should have been able to have a horrible campaign and still easily qualify. And the attitudes he described have everything to do with why a bad campaign translated into disaster.

mls should not strive to be a place where top american players are playing

some people think it should for various reasons

those people are wrong if they want top american players to be better

that is all

yeah, it's self-serving psychobabble nonsense, for the most part

it's almost as though they sold Miazga after 1 year in MLS, and Yedlin after 2


still waiting for this list of players that they're holding back...
(apparently Kellyn Acosta is the entire list, and he's next to go, so whatever)

and i guess you'd all be in favour of MLS scrapping their domestic quotas then

Jurgen goat

this is a fair point, and it's fair to say MLS isn't THE problem, but it's a problem. Much of the problem with the MLS, and this is what Cameron is saying, is that our good players get comfortable and uncompetetive. Sure, some T&T players are in the MLS, but that's an achievement for them, and they bust ass to maintain it. A guy like Michael Bradley? Or Landon back in the day? They came back and they raked. They could play at 70% in the domestic league and crush. Then when you go to int'l competition, you aren't sharp, and your effort is lacking. Effort and great conditioning goes a long way in fitba, both of which get diminished by playing in a league below your skill level.

If 72off actually read the article I'm sure he'd understand. The relative quality of MLS isn't the problem. It's the attitude behind the MLS/USSF. If a kid is good enough to go to europe and he asks his coach "My dream is to get to Europe, please help me." Instead of 100% of coaches/administrators responding "Yes, let's make a plan, I'll do everything I can". 50% respond "No, it's best for you to stay here in USA#1 for us." And that's ****ing ridiculous and detrimental to our NT

i don't think this is true, or at least it misses the point. people who think the best usa players should play in the best available leagues believe that *every league* is a "tool" to improve the national team

Wait Sacha Klejstan is a superstar in the MLS? I remember rooting for him just because he always came accross as a good lad but he was a bit average for the belgian league. and the belgian league is absolutely terrible

There is no such thing as a superstar in the MLS but, yes, he is skilled enough to be a top tier AM in MLS. The minute the level rises just a bit, though, he flounders because he's not strong/athletic enough to compete with bigger/fast guys who have good tactical minds and tackle him.

This thread always ****s on MLS but honestly, what's the solution? American kids can't go abroad until they're 18 unless they qualify for a Euro passport. By then many developmental ships have already sailed. There's nothing under our control to fix that other than improving the quality of youth development in the states which, imo, is exactly where the focus needs to be. Spend **** tons of money to train **** tons of coaches and then fund developmental centers outside MLS academies in like 20 places. It's not MLS' fault that they want to see the best possible return on players that come through their academies.