Environment,society,upbringing > genetics IMO

So are people going to keep strawmanning the Argentina argument saying its only 5ish games every 4 years while ignoring Copa America and the WC qualifiers?

and the Olympics he won.

He was also preety good at U-20 world cup.

For technique-heavy sports like football and tennis, absolutely.

Ok NOW it's no contest:

yah these messi sucks for NT arguments is super dumb

but diego still GOAT

This conversation kind of happened on Saturday with a bunch of Spaniards except they were debating whether Pele was better than Messi. In my experience in Spain, Maradona doesn't get a mention in the debate. Strange phenomenon.

Lolpele

Maradona further authenticates claims of his GOAT status.

Messi could win every honour from now till doomsday and he still wouldn't be greater than god.

bump for today's carnage

What separates Messi from the rest is his level of consistency, lots of other potential GOAT's could only sustain God mode for a few years before Injuries/lifestyle/mentality all had ill efffects on the careers. He's only 24 and already breaking a club record that's stood for over 50 years, it's a matter of time before he ruins the all time European goal scoring record as well, when he finishes top scorer this year it'll be 4th year running, scary to think he's yet to hit his prime.

Here's a thought: let's forget about comparing Messi to footballers who have retired and enjoy a player who is clearly a living legend. He adds more moments and milestones to a story that still has quite some time to run. I'm going to be more than happy to wait until after his career has finished to compare him to players who have also finished theirs. With the benefit of hindsight we can truly view a player's contribution. For example, I happen to believe that Zidane's most influential international tournament was in 2006 not 1998 where there were players of immense stature and confidence unlike a team so dependent on his very presence in 2006. It is only after the years have rolled by after his retirement that I could look again and think on the players around him in different international tournaments, France's form and perceived team spirit.

Perhaps Messi is the greatest player of them all but each player contesting for this "crown" played in a different generation with different tactical constructs, football sides, levels of fitness and laws of the game respectively. Direct comparisons are difficult to make. Even when players play in the same era, direct comparisons aren't as clear as many would think. It is universally agreed that Xavi and Iniesta are wonderful, technical and cerebral footballers but there is a tendency to ask which player is superior. Some views will be predicated on a preference of player roles. Some prefer deeper lying midfielders and other may favour more attack minded players which will play a role in judging which of Barcelona's two players is the true maestro.

Many have claimed that it is impossible to think of one without the other but I doubt there would be a majority vote in favour of Busquets being the better player despite his deep tactical intelligence and ability in his role which provides the platform for Xavi and Iniesta to operate. They in turn provide a platform for Messi to weave through hoardes of opposing players week after week with very little respite in playing intensity or attention.

I may be working on a tangent but the question of "who is the best in the history of football" isn't as simple as it would appear, especially as we haven't seen every contender play enough to appreciate and appraise each claim fairly. Only clips of flashes of brilliance and accolades seem to be deciding factors.

As a friend of mine told me earlier in the week, Messi is the best player of his generation. I would probably say he is the best player since Maradona which is a mighty accolade. His consistency, teamwork, creativity, goals, dribbling, technique, mental strength, passing, movement, balance, quick feet, agility, durability make him an irresistible performer.

Bravo on your milestone Messi. What heartens me the most is that Messi never seems to forget his fellow Barcelona players whether they create the chances for him or whether you make them for himself. Strangely, Messi is both a supreme individual player and a true subscriber to teamwork.

This doesn't make any sense.

This implies that Messi has done what those others could not do, according to you, which is sustain god mode for a long stretch of years. Messi is only 24 and this remains to be seen.

even if he gets injured the next game and never plays again he is still the GOAT for me.

hes showed incredible high class skill for many many seasons already on a consistency level no other player ever has.

Well, that was my point. If you ask 10 diferent players who the best is, you'll get like 10 different answers.

Seriously, you only watch Barcelona games? (in case you do, check out some other players over there - xavi, iniesta- and tell me what you think).

You ever heard about Mario Jardel? He used to score 35 for Sporting every season while fat and possibly on crack.

Ronaldo (the fat one) played great for PSV,Inter (when he was able to), Barca, and Real.

Ronaldo (the cocky one) has played great for Sporting, Man U and Real.

Everyone forgot what Ronaldinho did for Bacelona, when most times he won games by himself. Same for Rivaldo.

Zidane played great for Juventus,Real and French National Team.

All this players played great for more than 1 (ONE) team in their career.

Messi only played for Barca. He started playing near Ronaldinho, Xavi, Iniesta and Puyol and still plays with most of them. Some people dont seem to understand that Barca has a mechanism. It doesnt run without Xavi and Iniesta. Sure, they can win a few games but without them they dont make it in the long run. I know this is gonna bother a lot of people, but between Xavi, Iniesta and Messi, the easiest to replace is Messi in my opinion (in order to keep them at their current level).

Xavi and Iniesta were the most important pieces for Spain's international success. Anyone impressed with Spain's game? Did their style remind you of a certain team? Did they have Messi ? No, yet they still dominate.

lol haters

Maradona GOAT

He won the worldcup 1986 practically alone with a mediocre team
Pele has won 3 WCups but in a great, great team.

Maradona was a soccer team. He is ahead of Pele, Cruyff, Zidane, Messi, Ronaldo´s imo

EDIT: maybe Messi is a better dribbler than Maradona, but he is outclassed in other areas of soccer.

Hopefully God mode can last a few more years but it's possible he's already at his peak. The thing about Messi is that I could eventually see him playing in a different role a few years down the line, playing deeper and primarily as a creator.

Argentina team in 1986 was not mediocre. Why do people keep insisting on this? Same with Napoli team of the late 80s

It doesn't remain to be seen at all, he's already won 3 WPOTY titles in a row by the age of 24, is a heavy favourite to make it 4 which will make him the first player to ever win it 4 times never mind 4 in a row. It's hard to see him finishing without at least 7 or 8 WPOTY titles.

He will prob more than double a goalscoring record that's stood for half a century at Barca, and will destroy the European goalscoring charts as well, he's done at this by the age of just 24 and has shown no sign what so ever of letting up.

this, it's actually embarrassing to read ppl coming off with this stuff. Just reciting this garbage myth with no clue at all.

You do realise that, that Argentina side reached the semis the world cup before and won it the previous year to that? They where far from a mediocre side.

It's also stupid to say that you should base it on world cup wins.

Messi is 24, the top scorer from one of the biggest clubs in the world. He's been top scorer in the CL 3 years running, topping this year as well.

It's not just about scoring goals though it's the way he scores them. Players with scoring records like him are normally deadly in the box goal poachers. He's not. He gets several assists as well as contributions else where on the pitch.

This is wrong. Xavi and Iniesta make Barca tick, but they have excellent (although inferior) replacements in Cesc and Thiago should both be injured. There's no one to replace Messi. He wins them games with an insane amount of goals and absurd amount of assists. Barcelona without Messi look toothless, whereas Barcelona without Iniesta and Xavi, while not as out-of-this-world excellent, still look like a great team.

Unreal.

It's all relative. The people saying mediocre, don't literally mean they were like a midtable standard team or a team which would struggle to get out of the group stages of a WC etc. They were mediocre compared to the great World Cup sides or great club sides, of even that era nevermind of all time. The main reason, by far, for their success, was Maradona. That is the point people are trying to make. More than any other player he was responsible for the considerable amount of success of teams he was on. Compare it to Cruyff, or Beckenbaur, or Pele, or Zidane etc. They were on legit all time great sides.