look at the stats for the seasons lol

http://82games.com/0203PHI.HTM

simple solution about the 10 spot, give it to Manu

I don't think you got it...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...order_by_asc=Y

More super elite company.

iamawesomer/assani,
I am going to preface this by saying a what I am posting could just be projection.
I think ignoring people is better than laughing at people while rehashing arguments that have been beaten to death. I doubt people are trying to educate cbax, they are being derisive to validate their own intelligence or gain internet cool points. Being aware of PER and Fangraphs doesn't make you intelligent it makes you knowledgeable and it doesn't justify condescension, especially since we are discussing relatively esoteric things. Having read Baseball Between the Numbers or knowing that RANGZZZZZZ is a ****ty argument shouldn't be a point of intellectual pride and people are treating it as if it is.

Without looking anything up(honor system), give me a basic description of what the following stats mean and then give a brief paragraph saying the strengths of each stat, the weaknesses of each stat, and your view of their overall usefullness.

TS%
eFG%
APM
Roland Rating
PER
Win Shares
Wages of Wins
Defensive Rating
Offensive Rating
Pythagorean W/L
VAA
VAR


I could literally write a 5 page essay on any one of those stats right now(and those who know me on here, know that I sometimes will get carried away and make ultra long posts about these sort of things). I've spent hours and hours debating the merits of each of these stats with other threadzilla regs. I've also spent hours and hours discussing the merits of analyzing games through watching them....we've discussed things such as accounting for biases when watching, selective memory, and the benefits of charting our own stats which aren't kept anywhere else.

If you want some background on me personally, I was a DII college basketball player, I worked as head statistician for our men and women's teams after I graduated, and if not for poker I most likely would be in coaching right now. This past year, I was a part of a NBA betting team which put forth a very complex program to try to beat Vegas betting lines(although I'll be the first to admit that kbfc, another threadzilla reg, deserves 99.99% of the credit for that and I was mostly along for the ride).


And despite all of this, I don't even consider myself one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum when it comes to basketball. I think I'm maybe top 10.

cbax bordering on odell bad at this point

If he does, then will you pay(be very careful when answering this because I think I may have a source for this info)?

No way he wins a title but I am sure the Suns would have had a great chance to make the finals. Then they would have got owned just like everybody else by these guys.

the bold is where you're wrong. I actually love it when a completely casual fan starts to understand advanced stats more and becomes an intelligent fan. Hell, I'll be the first to admit that I was a casual fan when I first came to 2p2....you probably remember some of my old NFL posts, which were completely LOL. Don't you enjoy discussing NFL much more with me now that I will at least listen to the advanced stats and not just say "But Brady is so clutch!!"?

Assani,
Your first post in this thread
If you have switched into education mode that's fine, but I have been skimming this thread and my post was in reference to this post (generally not specifically)

Ok heres my basic view on AI and putting him 7th when i made the list.
The list took me about 10 minutes and i brainstormed the top players then looked at the stats and made the list...

I looked at AI's stats for 00-10. If you dont look at the fg% his stat line is as good as anyones in terms of pergame averages throughout all 10 years in the decade. If not its top 3-5. He also has been an all star every year and has the MVP so immediatly You have to atleast consider him for the list.

Ok so his fg% is way low and he doesnt play d, the reason people are not putting him on the list.

Yes his fg% is low but you have to consider how many times he had to shoot the ball for the sixers to win bc no1 else on that team could play offense. Obv no1 is going to be as effecient shooting 35 shots as they are 20. Any player who would of had to shot that much for their team to win would not be more effecient as iverson if as effecient. That being said he wasnt that far below fg% from other guards (yes he was low but he wasnt shooting like 35%). He wasnt just some guy the team let run wild and shot a million shots a game, there was a purpose to him shooting that much, the team needed it to win.


2. He was not the best defender. Defense does not really show up in the stat line, so defense is completley irrelvant cuz stats are really the only thing that matters in bball. no im kidding but i know people would freak out, so defense would be an intangible iverson didnt have but what he does have is hustle/heart and cluthness. Iverson made so many hustle plays and put his body on the line so much as well as he was huuuuuge in the cluthc and didnt choke those 2 intangibles make up alot for his unability to play defense.


Overall looking at Ai no hes not a top 3 player of the decade but i think putting him 15 and lower is just a little harsh to a guy w/ a redic statline and the 2 points i just made


and fwiw i know what TS is assani and im still confused about what makes you so much more qualified then me, not looking to start an argument just dont see why u think ur so much more qualified then me bc we disagree on the value of one guy

EDIT: the last paragraph i wrote b4 i read all the posts amde in the last 30 min, i havent read them yet just saying b4 some1 says something

You just called defense an intangible

I really don't believe you know one iota about basketball

Sorry!

using fg% instead of ts% makes him a lot more qualified than u

Also, not shocking that someone who listed Kobe as #1 and thought there was no argument for it and thinks AI is one of the greats ever brings up "heart" and "clutchness"

Man cbax types a lot like Epi

mjw i know this is the 2nd time u've gone out of your way to try and insult me in the past 6 hours which is out of your norm, you only insult me about once every 23 days or so.

are u really that mad that i called your rb bids terrible in the nfl auction thread?

You have reliable data for 60s players? Whatifsports.com shows Robertson having the following steal averages:

60-61 - 2.3
61-62 - 2.6
62-63 - 2.2
63-64 - 2.5
64-65 - 2.5
65-66 - 2.4
66-67 - 2.3
67-68 - 2.1

I'm not sure where they got this data. Anyway,

Robertson 60-68 : 2.36 spg
Iverson - 00-08 : 2.32 spg

Assani, for a relative NBA noob, what is TS%?

and what are the other good metrics? I know PER from espn.com but haven't heard of the other ones.

Ironically I know more about the technical aspects of basketball than any other sport (other than MMA) because it's what I played growing up. I can dissect the Xs and Os very well, but am not a basketball stathead at all.

uh oh, looks like someone owes someone 1k!

i knew this would have an awesome ending

TS%
True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws

defense can certainly be considered an intangible. its hard to measure and is hard to evaluate by the naked eye.

lol, didn't I say that we overbid by a ton on both? I was just noting the typing similarities we've all grown to love. u've impressed me, really.

QF1000DOLLARS MOTHER****ERS.