Yes I know how to read ESPN too. The point we're arguing here has nothing to do with the Heat or this years Cavs. It has to do with if Lebron had enough to win with the Cavs during his first stint with Cleveland.

He no way had enough in 07. he was a beast and the Spurs realized if you shut down LBJ the rest of his team will do nothing.

I'm talking about 09-11, when his team won 60+ games in back to back years and featured multiple 16ppg+ scorers. The reason you don't see them on that list is that they obviously never made it to the finals. A huge reason for that was that Lebron put up sub par numbers or disappeared in those Eastern series.

I am not hating on LBJ, saying he should have 12 rings or any other ridiculous thoughts. All I'm saying is that there was a span of 2-3 years in Cleveland when the Cavs definitely had enough to win. Then Lebron left the next year at age 25. There's no way that if he had stayed for the next 10 years Cleveland would sign nobody to pair with Lebron

Those Boston teams he struggled against were quite good and had 3 HOFers.

Against Orlando, Lebron had one of the greatest series stats of all time only to lose. To blame him is either misremembering or just being stupid--he had a 37.4 PEr for the playoffs and it wasn't enough (14 game sample).

In the final game in his first stint as a Cav, Lebron had a huge triple double but also had 9 TOVs.

Lebron was on the HEat from 2010-2011--where he lost in the finals to a very good Mavs team with an excellent plan.

LEbron earlier Cavs teams were made to beat regular season teams and typicallys struggled against many legit playoff foes. They were deep but in the playoffs you need a top level starting lineup, something he didn't have.

Lebron's final game lol? Not only did he have 9 TO but he shot less than 40%. This game came after a game where he shot 21% and another sub 40% game. He completely disappeared this series. Was Lebron the best player going into that series 1000%. Was That team was good enough to win the series 1000% but not with their best player having three terrible games.

The Orlando Series Lebron put up some monster games but during his teams final 3 losses he had sub par shooting games in all 3. He was wildly inconsistent that series and that is my point. This team was good enough to win in HUGE part because of Lebron but his inconsistency was a big reason why they didn't win.

Both years those teams were good enough to win but not with Lebron being so inconsistent or disappearing

When you shoulder the load on both sides of the ball, of course you aren't going to excel in 15 straight games. Jordan had pippen to shoulder the defensive wing load. Kobe has had Ariza and artest. I guess I'm not going to win this argument with you, but I've seen your list and location so I know exactly what I'm dealing with.

Kobe's pau teams were good enough to win when Kobe had a poor game, same can't be said for the heat or the cavs.

Name me any series in where Kobe and Mj had sub par games 3 out of the 4 final games and were that inconsistent and still went on to win the series?

LBJ had MO and Jaminson both 16 ppg + scorers and Varejo a all nba defender. He had to carry the burden of the load but he wasn't exactly playing with the generals

No team who's a 60+ win team is capable of winning with that level of inconsistency from its best player

Chamberlain averaged 22.5/24.5/4.2 on .522% from the field in the playoffs. I would imagine most sane people wouldn't refer to this as "underwhelming". Your post about the not-playing-D to avoid fouling out is also bizarre and inexplicable. No list I've ever seen has Chamberlain 8th or worse.

Pippen's career averages do not stack up with others on this list, and it's disingenuous to say he was "one bad call" from the '94 Finals, as this assumes they'd have automatically won in the CF. He also had only a 9-year stretch of top performance, again, considerably worse than others on the list. Lebron's already put up 12 years' worth, with another 4-6 to come.

You did manage to get your 3rd paragraph correct.

1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Bill Russell
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Bird
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Kevin Durant
13. Moses Malone
14. Jerry West
15. Hakeem Olajuwon
16. Dr. J
17. Karl Malone
18. Elgin Baylor
19. KG
20. Pippen
21. Isaiah Thomas
22. D Wade
23. Dirk Nowitski
24. Barkley
25. Havlicek
26th and rising: Steph Curry

You're going to end up getting derision for having Kareem ahead of the other two great C's, and Durant is way too high.

1. Pretty common to have Kareem ahead of those guys in all time lists, so derision is a bit of a funny word to use there.
2. Durant is a transcendent talent. He will probably finish his career as one of the 5 greatest scoring threats/ matchup nightmares on offense of all time. I guess my ranking has more to do with how I would rank guys in their prime, and not their career accolades.

ya, i was gonna point out that the cavs won like 125 games over 2 yrs and were the odds on title favorite in the 2nd round of the playoffs both of those yrs.

but super lol at saying lebron disappeared. the magic series was proly the greatest individual effort of all time. for boston he had 1 bad game.

In the Boston series Lebron had 3 subpar games in a row or just flat out disappeared.
Game 5- Shot 39% with 7 TO. Went 0-3 in the final 5 minutes and didn't score.
Game 6-Shot 21% from the field.
Game 7-Shot 38% from the field. Had 9 TO

The magic series had some of the best individual games ever recorded but he was wildly inconsistent.

Game 4 shot 39%
Game 6 shot 40%

Without Lebron the Cavs don't come close to sniffing the finals but they'll never win with that level of inconsistency from there best player. Kobe, Mj, Duncan anybody you name has never won a series that deep being that inconsistent

Game 3 was when he actually shot 39%, but he was 18-24 from the line. That's basically 9-12 in field goals (better actually as fouls get assessed to the other team). If you take his 11-28 shooting and add 9-12 to that you have 20/40, 50%, which is excellent.

His true shooting percentage that game was 53% which isn't good, but it's as bad as his 39% FG% looks.

"Finish his career as one of the 5 greatest scoring threats" doesn't equal being the 12th greatest all-time player NOW.

Source for your comment about Kareem? I've seen only a couple of lists ever that cave it Kareem > Wilt

itt we conveniently ignore free throws and the effect being fouled has on making shots.

Also when Wilt was playing the average NBA center was 6'8

Not to take away from Wilt too much since he was obv a dominant player, but pace matters. B-ref doesn't have pace for back then but it does have fg attempts/game. The year he averaged 50 and 25, the average game had 107 fga/game. Today its 83.

If Carlos Boozer or Antawn Jamison make the Hall of Fame I will eat dirt.

No, I will actually make a video and eat dirt. Feel free to quote me.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...-time/page/102

in before 'lol bleacher report'

According to NBA & ABA Leaders and Records for Hall of Fame Probability
[1], Jamison is 0.6% to make Hall of Fame, and Boozer is 0.65%.

[1] http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../hof_prob.html

Agree with George but Peggy Bundy > Elaine

I didn't say there were NO lists, and interestingly enough, that's one of a couple I checked out before making the statement.

It's pretty well known that Wilt "didn't play D on 5 fouls." There are numerous first hand accounts from coaches, players and media. While those playoff numbers appear good in a vacuum, when you consider the fact it's a 8ppg drop from his regular season average, it changes their value. Has any other player ever had that much of a drop from regular season to post season. It's hard to pad your stats in the playoffs.

Pippen's career stats are not as good as others on the list but they are still very strong and they are probably his weakest argument for belonging on the list. When you factor in his amazing defense and 6 rings I think it makes him a solid candidate for a top 15 player. Your right when you say that does assume they won the CF, but they did beat the Pacers 4 times in the regular season. Saying Lebron has 4-6 years left is giving him credit on what his potential is. Which to me is completely irrelevant to the list.

rip