Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-01-2013, 06:29 PM   #2576
D104
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
D104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In a better place.
Posts: 17,973
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Bill Simmons can be a pretty great writer from time to time. Excellent work w/ the PED article.
D104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 06:36 PM   #2577
DatFirefly
veteran
 
DatFirefly's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,147
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

This is the kind of quality opinion piece that Simmons does really well (sometimes misfires but is generally spot on). When he lets his passion and his knowledge shine through his writing and not look for a cheap pop culture reference or joke, he is an excellent writer, who can ask those tough questions.

I mean the fact that no one in the mainstream media questions Ray Lewis about PED's when clearly something is going on is really sad. It's like a pact to preserve the narrative around the game.

Anyway, nice to see Simmons rebound from one of his absolute worst columns last week
DatFirefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 06:45 PM   #2578
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,327
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by B Rose View Post
Daring to Ask the PED Question




Some straight forward talk about his view on PED on sport. Very different from what you usually hear talked about on ESPN. Much more like a fan. He links to a Henry Abbot true hoop piece discussing NBA and PEDS. BS says that broadcasters should be able to speculate more openly.

IMO all successful athletes are on some PED and I don't care as long as they are doing it with medical supervision and are aware of the risks.
I really disagree all successful athletes are on PEDs. Different sports are different of course. The big 3 American sports are kind of tailored to the bigger/faster/stronger/heal quicker aspect of them. I would be shocked if there was a high rate of PEDs in say the NHL or MLS. Same with Tennis, even it is perhaps a bit more tailored to use of PEDs.

When you look like an athletic freak, there might be something too it. But if you told me Beckham, Crosby or Federer, Manning had taken PEDs I'd be shocked. Ray Lewis, A-Rod etc? Not so much
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 06:49 PM   #2579
Rolando Blackman
adept
 
Rolando Blackman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 999
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

i would be shocked if there wasnt widespread ped use in soccer and hockey, as well as every other sport
Rolando Blackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 06:56 PM   #2580
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,327
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Soccer is more prone to match fixing then PEDs. You can look across every top league in Europe/rest of the world and the top speeds/jumping ability/stamina rates/everything you can test for is identical. The game has moved toward smaller, more technical players compared to say the big American sports where everyone is getting physically bigger. Not saying no one juices in hockey/soccer, but the attitude some people have of "everyone juices" just doesn't pass a lot of tests. You can look at sports where juicing is prevalent. Every record is being broken. People are bigger/faster/stronger then ever. Not true in every sport.
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:01 PM   #2581
Rolando Blackman
adept
 
Rolando Blackman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 999
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic View Post
Soccer is more prone to match fixing then PEDs. You can look across every top league in Europe/rest of the world and the top speeds/jumping ability/stamina rates/everything you can test for is identical. The game has moved toward smaller, more technical players compared to say the big American sports where everyone is getting physically bigger. Not saying no one juices in hockey/soccer, but the attitude some people have of "everyone juices" just doesn't pass a lot of tests. You can look at sports where juicing is prevalent. Every record is being broken. People are bigger/faster/stronger then ever. Not true in every sport.
juicing isnt just about getting bigger, look at lance armstrong. there just isnt testing in either sport. but like simmons said, do you think a bunch of hyper competitive athletes arent going to look for an edge?
Rolando Blackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:06 PM   #2582
Pwn_Master
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Pwn_Master's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,696
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Good article, but his what seemed like anger about PED usage seemed a little weird. Doesn't really affect my enjoyment of sports, and his point about the ambiguity of what is "cheating" and what isn't would seem to cut against getting upset about it.
Pwn_Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:14 PM   #2583
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,327
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando Blackman View Post
juicing isnt just about getting bigger, look at lance armstrong. there just isnt testing in either sport. but like simmons said, do you think a bunch of hyper competitive athletes arent going to look for an edge?
lol? In Europe players get tested from FIFA, UEFA and their own FAs. And unlike the American sports, there isn't really an off-season in most years.

Armstrong and his team were putting in absolutely ridiculous times, it was more gross then McGwires numbers. Everyone knew they were cheating, some didn't want to believe of course.
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:20 PM   #2584
Rolando Blackman
adept
 
Rolando Blackman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 999
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic View Post
lol? In Europe players get tested from FIFA, UEFA and their own FAs. And unlike the American sports, there isn't really an off-season in most years.

Armstrong and his team were putting in absolutely ridiculous times, it was more gross then McGwires numbers. Everyone knew they were cheating, some didn't want to believe of course.
there might be testing but its not designed to catch anyone from what im reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_...ation_football

Quote:
So far, only one Premiership player has ever tested positive for using performance-enhancing drugs in a league match. According to a statement of one of UK Sport's Independent Sampling Officers (ISO), "If a club knows in advance we're coming, and the club suspects one of their players, they keep him off training and his name doesn't appear on the list I am given". In the 1999-2000 season, testers were present at just 32 of the 3,500-plus league games, taking samples from two players of each side. Compared to other sports in the UK, like cricket, cycling or athletics, footballers are far less likely to be tested.[12] A case of high profile was the one of Rio Ferdinand, who missed a drug test in September 2003 and found himself punished for it, being banned for eight months.[13]
In July 2009, the FA was in talks with the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) over the FA's proposal to comply with the WADA international anti-doping code (as other UK sports such as rugby, golf and tennis have already done). The FA was at the time under pressure from organisations including UK sport and Sport England to comply with the code and to put forward the first 30 players of the English national football team for testing.[14]
The dispute was apparently to do with the rules surrounding footballers in the testing pool. Should footballers have drug-testing on randomly-selected days (so athletes must state their whereabouts for an hour every day) as in other WADA-compliant sports, or should testing merely take place each week at club training? See WADA whereabouts controversy.
Rolando Blackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:23 PM   #2585
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,327
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

No ones saying that no one cheats in any sport. But to allege that everyone cheats in either/every sport is as bad as saying no one does. Both extremes are just ignorant.
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:24 PM   #2586
Rolando Blackman
adept
 
Rolando Blackman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 999
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

i said widespread, as in more than just isolated cases. not everyone
Rolando Blackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:28 PM   #2587
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,327
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

My original complaint was with B Rose who said "all successful athletes" dope. "Widespread" is kind of vague, as is "isolated."

I couldn't ball park to what extent people abuse in pro Soccer. But the fact people don't recover from injuries quicker then they should, that players still drastically fall off after 30-32 and the best players come from the best academies, it's encouraging that it's not as widespread/necessary.
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:36 PM   #2588
DannyOcean_
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DannyOcean_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Bellagio vault
Posts: 28,341
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

I enjoyed the BS article as it related to the media.

Nobody in the media will talk about it except in SUPER vague terms. Why is Skip Bayless not ranting about how he's sure Ray Lewis is cheating? Bayless will tard-rant about literally any subject you hand him. Why will nobody ever talk about it? Simmons is correct in that it would be career suicide. They'd be reprimanded or fired.

And that's bull****, and nearly every single person working in sports reporting/journalism has the 'sports fan face' and the 'ESPN face'. And when they're in ESPN (or whatever outlet) mode, they never question how athletes get better in their late 30's or recover miraculously from massive injuries. Total bull****.
DannyOcean_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:36 PM   #2589
B Rose
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 189
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

All was a little strong and a bit of hyperbole. I meant >99% of athlete who wins in sports with large monetary gain. The affect of PED use is too huge in most sports. That includes soccer, hockey, basketball, tennis, baseball and not just the obvious: NFL, athletics, weightlifting.
Without having all information on athletes such as biological passports which look for the effects of doping and not the presence of illegal drugs etc... , I believe that all athletes that finish at the top dope.
B Rose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:44 PM   #2590
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,327
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by B Rose View Post
All was a little strong and a bit of hyperbole. I meant >99% of athlete who wins in sports with large monetary gain. The affect of PED use is too huge in most sports. That includes soccer, hockey, basketball, tennis, baseball and not just the obvious: NFL, athletics, weightlifting.
Without having all information on athletes such as biological passports which look for the effects of doping and not the presence of illegal drugs etc... , I believe that all athletes that finish at the top dope.
wat
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:45 PM   #2591
NhlNut
KANGZ
 
NhlNut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: RANGZ
Posts: 16,493
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

I really do worry about hockey. the culture is such that the player does anything to play. Especially to heal injuries, I just see it being rampant.
NhlNut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:55 PM   #2592
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,327
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NhlNut View Post
I really do worry about hockey. the culture is such that the player does anything to play. Especially to heal injuries, I just see it being rampant.
We've had a lot of "tell all" people from hockey come out in the last 10 years. Revealing drug (non PED) use, sexual abuse and other horrific things in the game, but really no mentions of PED use.

And Rolando, The FA in England is a joke in every respect. But players are also tested by FIFA and UEFA, who test using WADA, blood samples and the like. An international player on a team that plays in Europe can expected to be tested 30(!) times a season.
Quote:
Both blood and urine samples were collected by UEFA from players at all doping controls prior to and during the tournament. This meant that each of the 16 teams were visited at their pre-tournament training camp, and were also tested after each match. All tests were conducted by UEFA's team of experienced doping control officers (DCOs), who are medical doctors representing a wide range of nations such as Germany, France, Slovakia and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

Analysis of samples was conducted at the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) accredited laboratory in Warsaw, according to an advanced analytical menu designed by experts from Europe's top anti-doping laboratories. This included screening for substances such as EPO and human growth hormone.

Last edited by aoFrantic; 02-01-2013 at 08:12 PM.
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:57 PM   #2593
B Rose
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 189
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Ok fine I'm still exaggerating. In sports without super strict testing and with a lot to gain
the freaks, super stars, MVPs, record holders, the players who are doing things never done before are on some form of PED. When the likelihood of getting caught is low, there is too much to gain to not take them. If the freaks where not on, then someone 98% as talented would dope and surpass them and they would be the freaks.
IMO there are players who are clean. They are the average, the scrubs, the players in last, the 500th best in the world.

edit: Simmons is saying we've been burned before. The whole part of PED profiling. He still says anyone who is a freak we should suspect them because of all the times before. It's been said many times how easy it is to beat almost all testing regiments except if we can look completely into their bodies such as with the biological passport.
B Rose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 08:02 PM   #2594
mutigers
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
mutigers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 36,328
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

It is kind of adorable who the soccer fans can't fathom that their heros do PEDS just like they do in you know basically every other sport

At the very least to come back from injuries
mutigers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 08:05 PM   #2595
gusmahler
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
gusmahler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Creepin'
Posts: 29,368
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic View Post
Soccer is more prone to match fixing then PEDs. You can look across every top league in Europe/rest of the world and the top speeds/jumping ability/stamina rates/everything you can test for is identical. The game has moved toward smaller, more technical players compared to say the big American sports where everyone is getting physically bigger. Not saying no one juices in hockey/soccer, but the attitude some people have of "everyone juices" just doesn't pass a lot of tests. You can look at sports where juicing is prevalent. Every record is being broken. People are bigger/faster/stronger then ever. Not true in every sport.
Two teams broke the La Liga team goals scored record last season.
gusmahler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 08:06 PM   #2596
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,327
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by B Rose View Post
Ok fine I'm still exaggerating. In sports without super strict testing and with a lot to gain
the freaks, super stars, MVPs, record holders, the players who are doing things never done before are on some form of PED. When the likelihood of getting caught is low, there is too much to gain to not take them. If the freaks where not on, then someone 98% as talented would dope and surpass them and they would be the freaks.
IMO there are players who are clean. They are the average, the scrubs, the players in last, the 500th best in the world.

edit: Simmons is saying we've been burned before. The whole part of PED profiling. He still says anyone who is a freak we should suspect them because of all the times before. It's been said many times how easy it is to beat almost all testing regiments except if we can look completely into their bodies such as with the biological passport.
The bolded is just not true. Just absolutely false and I can tell you never played sports at a high level for it. Well, it's all false but that's the most egregious.

I've played with and against people using low levels of PEDs in amateur sport, largely against players better then I was who aspired to higher levels. The most confusing part about PED use in sports I find is that fellow athletes know who is using. They know better then anyone. I know they would be basically blacklisted for life, but I'm surprised no recently retired athlete has said anything more controversial.
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 08:10 PM   #2597
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,327
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by mutigers5591 View Post
It is kind of adorable who the soccer fans can't fathom that their heros do PEDS just like they do in you know basically every other sport

At the very least to come back from injuries
I said people certainly do. I said it's ridiculous to state 99% of players do. Weird that it's that hard to fathom that other posters would take the time to read. Soccer is dirtier then every American sport, probably combined. But PEDs aren't a top 3 problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gusmahler View Post
Two teams broke the La Liga team goals scored record last season.
And Barcelonas entire starting XI, bar one player, possibly the GOAT team, was all from their academy. Every single player had been playing for them since between the ages of 6-12 to current. Real Madrid spent probably over £250 million buying their players. Every other team is in between £20-500 million dollars in debt. It's like if you took the Yankees and Red Sox and reversed Robin Hood the rest of MLB.
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 08:18 PM   #2598
ZBTHorton
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 19,870
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

I have no evidence to back me up, but I would think hockey would be one of the professional leagues with the most widespread use. Super high contact like football but way more games. I can't imagine what some of those guys have to do in order to stay healthy enough to play.
ZBTHorton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 08:19 PM   #2599
Pudge714
Modding All Day
 
Pudge714's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Frazier >>>>> Chilly
Posts: 39,104
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

Jesus i can't believe people liked that sanctimonious crock of **** from Simmons. I came in this thread expecting to see people tearing it up. It's righteous, ignorant and lacks rhetorical consistency.

aofrantic,
I am sure hockey and soccer players are using PEDs. At the very least painkiller abuse, which is always ignored in these debates is rampant in hockey.
Pudge714 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 08:22 PM   #2600
ZBTHorton
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 19,870
Re: Bill Simmons/Sports Guy Containment Thread

The issue with people who immediately say that people aren't using PED's is that there are TONS of different types of PED's. It's not like there's just this big ass container that says "steroids" on it and everyone grabs a syringe and gets big. There are drugs for getting bigger, drugs for working out longer, drugs for healing faster, drugs for reducing soreness, drugs for long distance running, yada yada yada.

There is no eye test for all PED's. Just because their skinny or fat or fast or lean or jacked or whatever doesn't mean they aren't using. And let's face it, millionaires often aren't going to be taking the run of the mill stuff, they're going to be taking specially designed drugs to do exactly what they need them to do. That's why the drugs are almost always ahead of the testing.
ZBTHorton is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online