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Old 04-17-2011, 12:32 AM   #9051
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True, but also true that at least a portion of the "poker bitterness" is earned.


Disagreement with the law aside (and really, who on 2p2 DOESN'T disagree with UIGEA?) complaints about the lameness of the law are a red herring here. Yes its a stupid law. But we've still had plenty of warning that something bad could happen at any time, (and from the standpoint of fall 2006, I think we had a pretty good run) so relying on the dumbness of the law to prevent its enforcement and so not making contingency plans was probably foolhardy.

Having thought about it a fair amount, my position on this is that I feel pretty bad for people up to the amount they have in limbo, and not really much after that. I don't take any joy for their plight, because the job market is hard right now. But I don't really mourn for them no longer being able to make the outsized amounts that many online pros were making for really not a lot of work in terms of hours, (edit to add: and I completely include myself in this, fwiw) and I feel almost no sympathy at all for the growing pains that may be forced upon people who don't wish to conform to a "normal" job.
The disconnect seems to be that one side has no real problem "putting the law aside" when that is the crux of the issue. Yes, this was always a possibility (although many didn't actually think it would get to this, whether through denial or being naive or whatever else), but the point is that doesn't make it OK. The fact that online pros or part time winners who depended on the extra income had four years to come up with a backup plan doesn't change the fact that this whole thing is completely ****ed up and they shouldn't have to have had a backup plan.

Who cares if they made a lot of money on short hours, the market is there for them to do that using their skills and it is being unjustly taken away from them.

This didn't start on Friday, it started 5 years ago and came to a head on Friday. It was a slow death with a big finish (up to this point, it'll be back eventually, which goes further to prove the absurdity of it all). But let's not play the "should have seen it coming" card or the "hey the law is the law" card, because they are both ignoring the real issue here.

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I guess shadyness is the wrong word. I guess uncertainty is a better description. Although in the end, most people were able to deposit/withdraw, there were many loopholes/red tape/frustrations. Plus through reading these forums, we've heard of stories of people not being able to cash out. Something wasn't 100% right. Or not close enough to where it wasn't a risk.

And also, +1 to Seth. I hope those who were successful are able to realize they've picked up skills that will likely translate in education or the job market.
Hey, someone's kid got killed but they can always have another kid!

Why should people have to take these skills to other jobs? The point isn't that they can, it's that they shouldn't have to.

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Don't disagree. I think the mocking is pretty distasteful and really ****ty. I have lots of friends with significant money in limbo right now. I hope they are able to get things going again soon as obviously wgaf if people are playing poker online other than some feds.

But the mega entitlement, especially for something that was so predictable is really gross too. I'm biased as not only I, but most of my friends who play for a living all saw this coming and made efforts to get regular jobs and transition (tho they do have money offshore ldo), realizing that counting on 20 years of poker income was folly. But even considering that, it's pretty shocking the naivete of so many otherwise smart people. Then again, considering the common background of so many players, I guess maturity and perspective on the real world is the one thing that I should've expected to be most lacking.
It's pretty shocking that we confuse entitlement with not being persecuted by your government because of said government's shockingly obvious motives.

Everyone should feel entitled to the right to make a living doing something like playing poker if they have the skills to do so. It is easy to sling arrows of naivete and immaturity at those being hurt, when in reality your disconnection from the actual problem shows some pretty deep biases.

Listen I'm 26, I work 40 hours a week. I never made high 5 or 6 figures playing poker. I've had fairly decently sized stretches where poker was my only source of income after college, but I also knew I wasn't good enough to do this through my 20s and into my 30s, and it was too much of an uncertainty for me. So I got a job, ended a staking agreement on my own accord, and it sucked, but I felt that I had to do it.

But that was my choice. I made it, not some bull**** government interference based on some even bigger bull**** motives. And I feel strongly that that choice shouldn't have been made for anyone else. And yeah, I have money in limbo, neither a life changing amount or a negligible amount (basically what I make in two weeks of work). I think I have a pretty good spot in the middle of this spectrum and I feel like the sky is falling "entitlement" crowd has a much better pov than the side where everything is blamed except for the actual problem.
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:36 AM   #9052
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Victor,

If you make one more post with the cardiotard account between now and the end of the ban of your main account I'm going to permaban this one and change the other one to a week. Including responding to this post.
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:38 AM   #9053
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Victor,

If you make one more post with the cardiotard account between now and the end of the ban of your main account I'm going to permaban this one and change the other one to a week. Including responding to this post.
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:39 AM   #9054
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lol
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:43 AM   #9055
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I posted that because when it does inevitably happen it's there documented so he can't say it was a tarp. I figured his BFFs would have fun with it.
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:43 AM   #9056
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F60,

I think drug dealers should be able to get a license and sell legally also, but the government has decided they can't either.

Stamping your feet and saying "what should be" is nice but ultimately we all have to deal with "what is", and "what is" has, for a while, been a situation that was obviously tenuous, arguably not legal to be offered, and clearly on the federal radar.

I mean, the entitlement attitude flies in the face of the entire fact base that is known to all. It's like living in a fantasy world - immature at best and head-in-the-sand at worst. "Should" it be legal, etc? Sure, why not? But that's not the point.
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:46 AM   #9057
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I wish vegas had a line on someone bringing drug dealers into this conversation.
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:47 AM   #9058
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Not that I could legally bet on it anyway.
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:53 AM   #9059
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I find Clark's whole stance about entitlement hilarious compared to his recent posting in the should college players be paid thread. Not a whole lot of telling the players to suck it up, the status quo is the status quo in that thread
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:02 AM   #9060
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I find Clark's whole stance about entitlement hilarious compared to his recent posting in the should college players be paid thread. Not a whole lot of telling the players to suck it up, the status quo is the status quo in that thread
Two totally different things.

One is a corrupt system that takes advantage of people and denies them the ability to receive any sort of market compensation.

No one is being taken advantage of or screwed by a corrupt system wrt poker. It's quasi-legal activity that has been pretty awesome to a lot of people. The issue is the attitude of *some people* who think the government should stay out of a completely unregulated, quasi-illegal market. That stance is just a crazy disconnect with reality. No other completely unregulated untaxed industry exists in the US afaik. Poker isn't exempt.

The good news is that there's a decent shot poker gets legalized at the federal level by the end of the year and it's all up and running within another 2 years after that. But the status quo was never a long-term reality. I get the anger, but it's awful misplaced. Seth had it right when he said he was pissed but in the end felt lucky it had lasted this long and was gonna try and figure out next steps. That's exactly the right attitude.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:04 AM   #9061
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Hey, someone's kid got killed but they can always have another kid!

Why should people have to take these skills to other jobs? The point isn't that they can, it's that they shouldn't have to.
The problem is now that it isn't an issue of should, it's going to. I agree with you concerning the law.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:04 AM   #9062
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My stances are actually very consistent imo:

Legalize and regulate drugs and let people get licensed, etc.
Let kids in college use their own name, etc to earn money as long as it doesn't come directly from the school and they report all the income.
Legalize poker in the US so it is taxed and regulated and people can play as they wish.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:08 AM   #9063
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How is the government enforcing rules any different than the NCAA enforcing rules? Afaik, making poker illegal denies people the ability to receive any sort of market compensation as well. If you say that the government is an elected representation of the people, giving it legitimacy that the NCAA doesn't have, keep in mind that not only is the NCAA completely legal, most of it's constituent members are public universities.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:08 AM   #9064
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Clark, why do you think it will be up and running again? Any evidence to point to?
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:09 AM   #9065
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How is the government enforcing rules any different than the NCAA enforcing rules? Afaik, making poker illegal denies people the ability to receive any sort of market compensation as well. If you say that the government is an elected representation of the people, giving it legitimacy that the NCAA doesn't have, keep in mind that not only is the NCAA completely legal, most of it's constituent members are public universities.
Oh please, give me one unregulated industry in this country not responsible for paying taxes.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:11 AM   #9066
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I'm sure that the poker industry would happily be taxed and regulated just like every other company in this country, they aren't the ones holding out.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:11 AM   #9067
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Clark, why do you think it will be up and running again? Any evidence to point to?
The Feds didn't keep Bodog out of business all that long right? Guessing something similar but who knows.

I know the online poker legislation at the federal level is definitely a possibility late this year, but from today you're looking, best case, at 30 months from something being live.

People will be able to make a living. Smaller sites will get bigger, just as when Party pulled out and others took its place.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:12 AM   #9068
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the NCAA is a private entity, that's a pretty huge difference
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:16 AM   #9069
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the NCAA is a private entity, that's a pretty huge difference
This is a distinction without meaning. If the NCAA was nationalized, would anyone change their position?
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:22 AM   #9070
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I don't really care what should happen, it's just going to lead (already has lead) to politarding. It matters a ton from a practical standpoint.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:27 AM   #9071
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Oh please, give me one unregulated industry in this country not responsible for paying taxes.
I can't think of any legal industries where this is the case.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:39 AM   #9072
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I don't really care what should happen, it's just going to lead (already has lead) to politarding.
Where is our resident politard Dr. Ikes when we need him?
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:43 AM   #9073
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I am sorta sad I haven't gotten to see Epi's reaction. Would be interesting to know his take.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:45 AM   #9074
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I am sorta sad I haven't gotten to see Epi's reaction. Would be interesting to know his take.
He's handling it pretty well. He was admittedly very upset the first day but has already began to face facts and start thinking about things appropriately. I told him to buy a fast food franchise and he said he'll look into it.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:57 AM   #9075
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Ugh, fast food franchises so frequently boil down to purchasing yourself a really bad job.

Moot point - poker will be available for those who want to. Still is I'm sure. Guessing Bodog traffic is way up today.
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