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Old 03-20-2013, 10:06 AM   #55626
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Re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Bowling?

Human respect.

Last edited by Das Boot; 03-20-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:08 AM   #55627
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I don't understand why you're pleading for their human dignity.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:08 AM   #55628
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Human respect.

In what way?
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:12 AM   #55629
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Re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Bowling?

Ultimately, we want these kids to recognize and respect that other humans are complex beings capable, just like us, of experiencing profound pain. But that's a message that also affects our relationship with them. One might argue that their actions mean they don't "deserve" that level of respect and compassion. But the point that I would argue to both "society" and the rapists/apologists is that a baseline level of respect for one's humanity shouldn't be something that depends on qualifications or "deserving", on any level.

Obviously, what the rapists did is a far (, far, far, ..., far) more serious transgression against the humanity of their victims than the "let them rot", "shoot them in the courtroom", etc. type comments. But that attitude is a non-trivial transgression nonetheless.

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I don't understand why you're pleading for their human dignity.
Because they're human.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:12 AM   #55630
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It seems to me that you're mainly frustrated with the way the media portrayed these kids, which is fine. Media companies are going to do whatever they can to get more viewers. Problem is that some people see the media exaggerations, get angry like normal viewers, then learn what actually happened and try to defend the boys by saying what they did wasn't that bad compared to what the media said they did.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:16 AM   #55631
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Re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Bowling?

Quote:
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It seems to me that you're mainly frustrated with the way the media portrayed these kids
That's not really it, I don't think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Das Boot
the reflex to aggressively and viciously dehumanize offenders
This what "frustrates" me in a general form. SRM's comments about that 18-year-old don't specifically relate to the Steubenville case but are probably the perfect distillation.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:20 AM   #55632
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How do you know that the offenders are being dehumanized? Who'se dehumanizing them? Where are those people getting their information from?
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:27 AM   #55633
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Quote:
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Human respect.
I will definitely not rape their unconscious body if that's what you mean.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:28 AM   #55634
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Because I've read plenty of comments about them; people; the media.
What are these comments from the media that you dislike?
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:33 AM   #55635
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Re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Bowling?

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What are these comments from the media that you dislike?
Deleted because I didn't think that was a useful reply, but you're misinterpreting it. The semi-colons delineate my individual responses to Omar's questions.

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I will definitely not rape their unconscious body if that's what you mean.
I'm not going to box with this issue. Fine jab, though.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:39 AM   #55636
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Not sure how that wasn't useful. I'm not following the case and wondering why you don't like their comments.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:39 AM   #55637
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I get what your saying but you have to realize people are going to make extremist issues about EVERYTHING. It really isn't representative of how society is treating these kids if someone says burn them from the stake, regardless of how loud they yell.

These kids were given a trial and convicted. Their rights as humans were not infringed upon. They weren't lynched. Those are the rights society has to protect, not whether or not they are hated or vilified.

The societal issue here is with the state college like absurdities that happened in this small football crazy town which breeds this kind of stuff.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:50 AM   #55638
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Re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Bowling?

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I get what your saying but you have to realize people are going to make extremist issues about EVERYTHING. It really isn't representative of how society is treating these kids if someone says burn them from the stake, regardless of how loud they yell.
Maybe the media is more of a problem than I give it credit for? Anyways, I'm arguing more against the attitude than any specific actions per se. People are vicious, almost gleeful, when they talk about the types of punishments they want to give to the "bad" criminals. It's that generalized demeanor that I find very problematic, both on an individual/personal/moral level and on a social/societal level.

This is an aside, but one example of the societal problems that arise is the development of our current atrocious system of sex crime laws, largely stemming from populist politicians responding to public outrage over pedophilia. The vicious retributive attitude also has dramatically negative consequences for our overall prison and justice system, though it's far from the only issue there.

Quote:
These kids were given a trial and convicted. Their rights as humans were not infringed upon. They weren't lynched. Those are the rights society has to protect, not whether or not they are hated or vilified.

The societal issue here is with the state college like absurdities that happened in this small football crazy town which breeds this kind of stuff.
I agree that it's not as though the government has a mandate to enforce these things. Human respect is simply how I feel the morally enlightened society in which I'd like to live should operate (and how individuals should seek to operate.) One's personal mileage may vary, but I think I've communicated why I feel the way I do on the issue reasonably effectively in -24 and -29.

Last edited by Das Boot; 03-20-2013 at 10:55 AM. Reason: clarify, add, etc.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:17 AM   #55639
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Re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Bowling?

All you are arguing for is less retribution and bloodlust from society and more rehabilitation it sounds like. That seems perfectly reasonable although politically unfeasible (and not particularly applicable in this case considering the sentence). I know sex offenders only have about a 3.5% recidivism rate while on parole (lifetime recidivism rates have been all over the place in different studies) from what I remember from a Times article a few weeks ago
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:44 AM   #55640
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Re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Bowling?

So, how's that RADIOHEAD?
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:02 PM   #55641
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Das Boot taking a little tumble off the cliff
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:02 PM   #55642
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Re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Bowling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Das Boot View Post
Ultimately, we want these kids to recognize and respect that other humans are complex beings capable, just like us, of experiencing profound pain. But that's a message that also affects our relationship with them. One might argue that their actions mean they don't "deserve" that level of respect and compassion. But the point that I would argue to both "society" and the rapists/apologists is that a baseline level of respect for one's humanity shouldn't be something that depends on qualifications or "deserving", on any level.

Obviously, what the rapists did is a far (, far, far, ..., far) more serious transgression against the humanity of their victims than the "let them rot", "shoot them in the courtroom", etc. type comments. But that attitude is a non-trivial transgression nonetheless.
you say you're not surprised this is my opinion because of my TJ lane post. fair. still, the reality is there comes a point in time where empathy is just a total joke. an extreme position, i admit, but what can i say. there are 4 crimes for which an over-the-top punishment i would advocate for and have absolutely no sympathy for (rape, premeditated murder, domestic abuse, child abuse). i get no satisfaction in "being the better man" and advocating for the human rights of the people who commit these crimes. i think far too many people do that and have, intentionally or not, created a society of apologists. screw that

edit:

anyway, as to the post i linked:

1. arguing that there are worse ways to rape a person therefore these people aren't as bad is ridiculous
2. "there is no such thing as a bad person" is nonsense a person would say because they just took a philosophy 1A class
3. genuinely remorseful my ass. this is a town that willingly covered up a rape that these morons bragged about (while drunk, sure, but still). they're remorseful cuz they got found guilty

Last edited by StoppedRainingMen; 03-20-2013 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:08 PM   #55643
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If you've watched the vid of them sitting around joking about it you will realize that these individuals deserve no "human respect.". They'll have to earn that back.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:29 PM   #55644
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Re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Bowling?

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Originally Posted by StoppedRainingMen View Post
still, the reality is there comes a point in time where empathy is just a total joke. an extreme position, i admit, but what can i say. there are 4 crimes for which an over-the-top punishment i would advocate for and have absolutely no sympathy for (rape, premeditated murder, domestic abuse, child abuse).
I advocate respect for humanity/dignity. I suppose this is based on empathy at its core (as expressed in the post you quote), but it's a generalized human empathy rather than specifically empathizing with any specific actions or views of these two boys.

Quote:
i get no satisfaction in "being the better man" and advocating for the human rights of the people who commit these crimes. i think far too many people do that and have, intentionally or not, created a society of apologists. screw that
"Society of apologists"? I think the actual apologists in Steubenville would (by and large) be philosophically opposed to me on this issue. And I haven't done any apologism whatsoever.

schu's post and 1) and 3) from the edit are specifically addressed in previous posts, if you want my reply to those. Suffice it to say: I very strongly disagree with the "deserve" framework for human respect and dignity, for what should be pretty easily understood reasons.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:32 PM   #55645
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re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Things CDL Says Thread

I'm down at the Transit Adjudication Bureau for that summons for lying down on the subway. Rough crowd down here, I feel like I have to kick someone's ass or become someone's *****. I'm expecting a fully guilty verdict. We'll see what happens.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:32 PM   #55646
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re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Things CDL Says Thread

After 35 years, 6 Months and 15 days, Voyager 1 has finally exited our Solar System.

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:35 PM   #55647
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re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Things CDL Says Thread

fwiw my mentality isn't based on blood for blood. i just feel the most logical way for future deterrent is to make the punishment for the crime really hurt. for instance, i think a better approach than gun control would be to make any violent gun crime automatic life in prison and premeditated murder an immediate capital offense. TJ lane is just an example of a person who's far beyond rehabilitation and should be executed
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:35 PM   #55648
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re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Things CDL Says Thread

I feel like that's been announced five times.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:37 PM   #55649
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:37 PM   #55650
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re: SE FAQ, Liveblog & Things CDL Says Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by StoppedRainingMen View Post
fwiw my mentality isn't based on blood for blood. i just feel the most logical way for future deterrent is to make the punishment for the crime really hurt. i think a better approach than gun control would be to make any violent gun crime automatic life in prison and premeditated murder an immediate capital offense. TJ lane is just an example of a person who's far beyond rehabilitation and should be executed
YEAH THAT'LL WORK!

If we made super harsh sentences for drug possession everyone will stop using them.
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