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Old 12-07-2015, 08:53 PM   #276
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
Oh and the proposed ban was ALREADY IN EFFECT
Were the rifles used not purchased legally?
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:54 PM   #277
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
Oh and the proposed ban was ALREADY IN EFFECT
Amazing. And I am the one allegedly arguing in bad faith.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:08 PM   #278
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
Err you prescribed a specific solution, the obvious interpretation of what you said (assault rifle) was already outlawed. The secondary interpretation of you meant (assault weapon) was already outlawed. Even though you claim it is 'obvious to any non idiot what [you] meant', I doubt that even you know what type of gun you want to ban in response to this event.
How about all guns?


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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
Wood,

The point is, the type of gun used isn't really any different than most hunting rifles. It looks bad ass and is all GI Joe'd up in terms of aesthetics, but other than that, it's just a semiauto rifle. Which 99.9% (note: not a sourced claim) of which are owned by civilians will never kill anyone, and which are already heavily regulated.

If all you want to say is "maybe if no guns were legal, this might not happen", then fine, just say that. Getting specific when you don't know what you're talking about just ends up confusing people who are into this at more than a topical level.

Remember when hoya had a really sensible post about NOT taking hunting rifles away? And then linked that nyt editorial? Well, the solutions proposed in that piece would in fact result in the confiscation of lots and lots of hunting rifles.

So I'd argue no, it's not just semantics, nor or terms just artful dodges to get around issues. Just say what you mean.
Some good info on what Ikes/KC are talking about regarding what assault rifles, semiauto, automatic, assault weapons are: https://reason.com/blog/2015/12/07/o...-weapons-but-d

Can we end the semantics now and someone answer the question I previously asked: why not just ban guns?

Forget that a gun ban likely would have or would not have prevented mass shooting x or y. I'm seriously wondering why not just ban them all? Of what utility is there to any legality of guns?
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:12 PM   #279
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
Wood,

The point is, the type of gun used isn't really any different than most hunting rifles. It looks bad ass and is all GI Joe'd up in terms of aesthetics, but other than that, it's just a semiauto rifle. Which 99.9% (note: not a sourced claim) of which are owned by civilians will never kill anyone, and which are already heavily regulated.

If all you want to say is "maybe if no guns were legal, this might not happen", then fine, just say that. Getting specific when you don't know what you're talking about just ends up confusing people who are into this at more than a topical level.

Remember when hoya had a really sensible post about NOT taking hunting rifles away? And then linked that nyt editorial? Well, the solutions proposed in that piece would in fact result in the confiscation of lots and lots of hunting rifles.

So I'd argue no, it's not just semantics, nor or terms just artful dodges to get around issues. Just say what you mean.
It's not that relevant that I happen to want all guns eventually banned. I know that is very unlikely to happen and I would happily take the small victory of banning the scary looking GI Joe machine gun. Even if it's not functionally different than my redneck uncles hunting rifle. To me, it's a total freeroll to ban those rifles. If best it makes it a little harder to get them and maybe saves a few lives then I'm happy with that. It's progress and hope, which is something I'm desperate for since the NRA has been Steph Currying me for years.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:21 PM   #280
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by shane88888 View Post
You're going to get real frothy once you read up on 3D printing.

The gun debate is a nice distraction though, until the first successful suicide bombing here. I figure it's happening within five years.
Again, everything is binary. No probabilistic thinking from you.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:24 PM   #281
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

Here's some binary for you:

01101100 01101111 01101100 00100000 01100111 01110101 01101110 01110011
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:36 PM   #282
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by BluffMyNuts View Post
How many lives were lost becuase they didn't charge at the gunmen/women?
I'll reply after I get home from the burn ward.
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Oh ok, in that case you're right there is absolutely nothing we can do to limit the amount of people killed by high powered semi automatic rifles
Not at all my argument. Simply pointing out, when the whole of a movement pushes extra hard to get ASSAULT WEAPONS banned, and takes a bunch of hunting rifles out of harmless owners hands, there will inevitably be another Cho who glocks down 20 or so.

My actual point is that definitions are important, and "things that look like military grade stuff" isn't sufficient.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:41 PM   #283
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Don't agree with the jargon argument because of reasons stated by wookie and tut, and because at least some of the restrictions people want (such as stricter background checks) don't hinge at all on specific types of firearms.

I do agree with the second argument. I don't like the current interpretation of the Second Amendment, but if an individual right to bear arms is indeed a fundamental right (in both the colloquial and legal sense) then you can't just take away that right capriciously
This is my main reservation with aggressive gun control, or worse, repealing the 2nd amendment, because, and I know this is tired and cliche, SLIPPERY SLOPES. If it could somehow be repealed without opening up any doors to further constitutional tinkering, AND the state could effectively get a good chunk of guns off the street, I'd mostly be fine with that. I just don't find it likely.

And my chief concern would be if the 2nd amendment goes, the 1st would be next in line for heavy revising.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:47 PM   #284
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by Wooders0n View Post
Were the rifles used not purchased legally?
They were. You proposed an assault rifle ban. Then you proposed an assault weapon ban. This gun isn't banned by either of those. What types of guns are you looking to ban exactly? Note: all of them is a correct answer, semi auto guns is a correct answer, but I don't see why it's my responsibility to figure out what the **** you mean. You still haven't given us a position other than maybe making this exact gun illegal.
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Amazing. And I am the one allegedly arguing in bad faith.
Arguing in bad faith isn't arguing against what you believe in.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:54 PM   #285
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

I'm glad you found another place where you can be the community savior, ikes.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:55 PM   #286
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

Basically what I want is this:

There should be one basic design of a handgun, one basic design of a hunting rifle, and one basic design of a hunting shotgun that are approved by law. These should be designed to limit the ability to fire more than a reasonable but very small number of rounds within a short period of time. These 3 guns should be the only guns anyone is allowed to own. Any individual is limited to owning one of each type of gun, and any household is limited to a maximum of 2 of each type of gun. All guns must be registered.

We are dealing with an item that is designed for the purpose of killing things. The fact that we have developed as a society in a way that these items are not the most regulated thing anyone can purchase is unconscionable, and needs to be corrected.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:56 PM   #287
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

Ya'll got ikes'd
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:57 PM   #288
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
They were. What types of guns are you looking to ban exactly?
The type of guns used in this shooting.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:59 PM   #289
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by Wooders0n View Post
The type of guns used in this shooting.
What do you mean by this? It literally could mean this exact model of gun to all rifles.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:02 PM   #290
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

Btw, what ikes is doing right now is illustrative of why a plan like mine is necessary. Outlawing something like "assault rifle" means gun manufacturers will just find endless loopholes to sell ridiculous weapons to the public. Instead we need to go the route of simply saying exactly A, B, and C are allowed, everything else is illegal.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:02 PM   #291
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
What do you mean by this? It literally could mean this exact model of gun to all rifles.
It's not my job to write the laws. I'd be happy with the specific models or all rifles. And everything in between.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:06 PM   #292
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
I'll reply after I get home from the burn ward.

Not at all my argument. Simply pointing out, when the whole of a movement pushes extra hard to get ASSAULT WEAPONS banned, and takes a bunch of hunting rifles out of harmless owners hands, there will inevitably be another Cho who glocks down 20 or so.

My actual point is that definitions are important, and "things that look like military grade stuff" isn't sufficient.
You know what else was hard? Abolishing slavery!

AMERICA **** YEAH!


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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
This is my main reservation with aggressive gun control, or worse, repealing the 2nd amendment, because, and I know this is tired and cliche, SLIPPERY SLOPES. If it could somehow be repealed without opening up any doors to further constitutional tinkering, AND the state could effectively get a good chunk of guns off the street, I'd mostly be fine with that. I just don't find it likely.

And my chief concern would be if the 2nd amendment goes, the 1st would be next in line for heavy revising.
Prohibition was reversed and the thing has literally been amended more than a dozen times since The Bill of rights but welcome to the 19th century. Stay a while.


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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
They were. You proposed an assault rifle ban. Then you proposed an assault weapon ban. This gun isn't banned by either of those. What types of guns are you looking to ban exactly?
That's an awesome argument for "all of them" as the most sane answer to your question.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MEb View Post
Basically what I want is this:

There should be one basic design of a handgun, one basic design of a hunting rifle, and one basic design of a hunting shotgun that are approved by law. These should be designed to limit the ability to fire more than a reasonable but very small number of rounds within a short period of time. These 3 guns should be the only guns anyone is allowed to own. Any individual is limited to owning one of each type of gun, and any household is limited to a maximum of 2 of each type of gun. All guns must be registered.

We are dealing with an item that is designed for the purpose of killing things. The fact that we have developed as a society in a way that these items are not the most regulated thing anyone can purchase is unconscionable, and needs to be corrected.
OK. I can buy this. Good post.


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Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
What do you mean by this? It literally could mean this exact model of gun to all rifles.
AWESOME!!!
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:11 PM   #293
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by MEb View Post
Btw, what ikes is doing right now is illustrative of why a plan like mine is necessary. Outlawing something like "assault rifle" means gun manufacturers will just find endless loopholes to sell ridiculous weapons to the public. Instead we need to go the route of simply saying exactly A, B, and C are allowed, everything else is illegal.
Yes, and it's easy to come up with what should be allowed. Just bolt or lever action rifles and break action shotguns. Easy.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:13 PM   #294
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

these are the guns they used in SB





We get it Ikes, they're not classified as assault weapons in the assault weapons ban in Cali, likely because they were semi-auto.

We both know what he means. You're distracting form the point.

Small note, semi-auto rifles can be modified to auto or auto-like pretty easily.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:17 PM   #295
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

Amending and repealing somewhat different things, and prohibition kind of a special case, given it's historically short lifespan (also interesting choice to bring up, given the parallels). But messing with the actual bill of rights is kind of a different animal, and it would be a major event in American history.

And if this thread is just gonna be cocky gotchas and ****, which aren't even the least bit funny, poignant, or interesting, with very little substance... Then this is basically politics and this thread serves no purpose.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:19 PM   #296
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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We get it Ikes, they're not classified as assault weapons in the assault weapons ban in Cali, likely because they were semi-auto.
Nope that's not it, literally every ****ing assault weapon is semi-auto.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:22 PM   #297
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

KC trying to come off like super reasonable mature guy while doing exactly what he's complaining about is pretty rich.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:23 PM   #298
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
Cho took out twice as many victims with handguns.
if this isn't a gotcha idk what is
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:26 PM   #299
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
My actual point is that definitions are important, and "things that look like military grade stuff" isn't sufficient.
This can be figured out by actual policy makers and experts. I don't need to figure it out. We're so far away from this point that "just do something, anything, please" is a worthwhile goal that we should be fighting for
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:27 PM   #300
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Re: SE Hoya Containment Thread (aka Politics)

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Nope that's not it, literally every ****ing assault weapon is semi-auto.
What? No... No they're not.
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