You're a mess.

Looooooooool. Yeah way to not give them a pass bro. Those sanctions and rebukings have done a great job

Yeah I edited to make it more clear.

I've never disputed that

I'm not aware of the progressive left being in charge of what you're talking about

Even still, this is what I've been talking about all thread that you still can't grasp: believing that military action won't accomplish what you want it to is not "giving a pass" or supporting Islam.

oh, it'll accomplish what he wants

Vhawk, Islam has played the major role or the only role in countless atrocities.

In the case of Orlando, I think it's fair to say that ISIS appears to play only a minor role at best. Islam, a major or the major role, sure. But I don't think it's ridiculous to consider that Islam isn't the sole cause of homophobic violence through history, and that this guy seems conflicted enough that any number of homophobic cultures could have had the same or similar effect on him

In general, in current times, sure, Islam is by far responsible for the most violence of any kind

The causes of the Orlando tragedy aren't black and white and by themselves aren't really enough reason to influence foreign policy imo

PC

I would say that's fair and if this were the first attack you'd have a great point. Of my three analogous cases, the trayvon Martin one is probably the least black/white as well, and things other than racism played a significant role and it's hard to say for sure. If that were the only case then our hypothetical right winger would get more of a pass.

The point you think I'd have isn't a point I'm trying to make, as far as I can tell

People want Orlando to be a cut and dry ISIS thing

My point a million posts ago was that Orlando was more complex than that.

It's not telling someone racism doesn't exist. It's the opposite

New Bloomberg poll has Hillary up 12, and finds it is pretty much impossible for Trump to win the Presidency:

That gives me a little more faith in our country and the election outcome not being disastrous

Chad,

Closeted Christians who hate their father and are confused about their life don't go on mass murdering rampages, there's an element missing. One can acknowledge the similarities in religious hate as well as the difficulties of being born in a culture like that while also still distinctly acknowledging that Islam has an extremist death and destruction to non believers violent element to it that makes it far more concerning.

Im not sure i agree that Islam is a bigger factor than isis here, I'd be shocked if the popularity and message of isis didn't sharply increase the probability of him carrying out this attack. Also think the homosexuality thing is being overstated if it's true that he was scoping out sites like disneyland. He was set on carrying out an attack somewhere, his homophobic homosexual issues just decided where he did it.

Of course it was much more complex. ISIS/terrorism moves the needle for conservatives though so that is where 100% of the focus goes from the Hannitys of the world. His show last night was laughable in its "coverage."

55% is depressingly sad. 95% is an acceptable number for me to have any faith in humanity.

My hope is that a good portion of that 45% are just not following news and don't know what he's said and done and that number will rise from 55% to much higher over time


It really is horrible to be supporting him tho

I try not to find out who people I know are voting for because I'll lose too much respect for them if I find out they support trump...it wasn't that way with any prior candidates in my lifetime

I'm pretty open about my Trump support and it hasn't lost me any friends. People tend to respect thinking for yourself if you can articulate it well, especially when the environment around you is so heavily tilted in the other direction. Some of these people are the purest Hillary slappies, so if someone's political views destabilize your view of them then it might be a you problem.

Where is this great articulation?

Welp

Meatspace.

One nice thing about real life is it's actually possible to have a civil and fruitful political discussion with someone you don't agree with.

Then why have you spent so much time doing it here? Lighting money on fire can't be that fun.

I actually find that people get MORE obstinate and dug in during meatspace discussion, and that it becomes untenable far sooner. I could just be bad at facilitating discussion. I mean, I am, but that can't be all of it

fyi they all shake their head and call you a dumbass when you leave.