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Old 05-24-2010, 03:07 PM   #2101
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by pokeriseasy View Post
You even say that it may be the best thing for boxing but because it's unprecedent it's outrageous, how does that make sense?
How does it not? I totally agree with PBF that better testing is needed in boxing, but what I don't agree with is waiting until you're fighting the first fighter in 5 years who might actually be a threat to you to demand it.

If PBF came into boxing and said, I don't give a **** what my opponent does, I'm taking Olympic level tests on every fight because it's important to me that boxing is clean, then Floyd is an absolute hero and I think the vast majority of boxing fans would roundly admonish whomever he fought if they didn't agree to similar tests.

Bottom line: PBF didn't ask for these tests until he fought Pac, and then once that fell through, he had NO choice but to demand the same in any subsequent fight or else he'd be accused, rightly so, of using the testing to duck Pac.

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You still didn't address the fact that Mayweather fought 1 of the 2 best possible opponents he could face while Pacquiao fought a fighter who is way down that list and had lost to Cotto who Pac had just destroyed. Why is it that it's cool for Pac to go and fight Clottey while Mayweather fights the person that many considered #3 P4P before their fight but Mayweather is ducking Pac? If you look at the quality of opponent the 2 fought after talks broke off it sure looks like it's Pac who wanted to fight the easier opponent.
Geddy did, and he knows ~1000x more about boxing than I do. Trust me if you like, but trusting him shouldn't really be up for debate.

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It doesn't matter that Mayweather fought a more notable opponent the fact is it's a pretty big bargaining chip to say "I did 2x as many PPV buys as you did in your last fight." That's like saying it doesn't matter that Phil Jackson won 10 titles because look at the players he's coached, he shouldn't demand more than Rudy Tomjanovich who won 2 titles with less talent.
Dude...wait...wat

Ignoring that analogy for a minute, the point is that PBF's fight didn't do twice as many buys based on his name alone. An example:

PBF fights the #4 WW at the time while at the same time Pac fights...me. Now you don't know me and nor does anyone in the boxing world. No one will pay to watch Pac kill me, but plenty will pay to watch PBF fight someone with talent. Pac fought a largely nonthreatening opponent while PBF fought someone that people knew very well and thought was a real threat (but wasn't really).

So in other words:

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It doesn't matter that Mayweather fought a more notable opponent
BUTNAHHHHHHHHH

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My main beef is that everybody jumps on Mayweather because they dislike him and think Pac is totally in the clear. Why wouldn't a fighter jump at the chance to prove he's the best, clean and make a ridiculous amount of money at the same time? It's ******ed to say Mayweather is ducking Pacquiao because he wants him to do drug tests when it really looks like Pac is ducking Mayweather because he's "too superstitious" to do a blood test that close to the fight, when every Olympic athlete goes through these tests. How did these tests slow down Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps?
I don't think anyone is arguing that Pac isn't stupidly superstitious.
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:04 PM   #2102
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by Richard Tanner View Post

I don't think anyone is arguing that Pac isn't stupidly superstitious.
So why don't people come out and say Pac is ducking Mayweather since he doesn't want to take the tests, why is it only Mayweather is ducking Pac because he wants him to take the tests. If it was the other way around everyone would be saying Mayweather has something to hide or that he's scared to fight Pac.
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:11 PM   #2103
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by Geddy Lee View Post
Mosley wasn't available, he was scheduled to fight Andre Berto. The only reason Mayweather-Mosley happened was because of the Haiti tragedy forcing Berto out of his fight with Mosley.

And lol Paul Williams. He was already moving up to 160 lbs. by that point...what was Pac gonna do, jump another two weight classes?
Mosley wasn't available for Pac but he was available for Mayweather, I don't get it? Did Pacquiao sign his fight with Clottey before the Mosley/Berto fight fell through?

Williams last fight was at 154, and had fought at 147 only about 18 months prior to talks falling apart between Pac and Mayweather. Williams also called out both Pacquiao and Mayweather after his last fight presumably meaning he'd drop back down to 147 to fight either. Stop making excuses for Manny.
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:18 PM   #2104
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by pokeriseasy View Post
So why don't people come out and say Pac is ducking Mayweather since he doesn't want to take the tests, why is it only Mayweather is ducking Pac because he wants him to take the tests. If it was the other way around everyone would be saying Mayweather has something to hide or that he's scared to fight Pac.
Because some people are aware that other cultures don't have the same beliefs that they do and are aware. Lyoto Machida has come out saying that he drinks his own piss. That is completely ******ed. Believing that losing blood makes you weaker (factually true) and that a smaller person losing a larger relative amount of blood would put him at a disadvantage is also factually true. So to think that a belief that has a basis in science would be misinterpreted by someone whose culture has a systematic lack of understanding of science/nutrition/anything else that doesn't seem like voodoo would just be common ****ing sense.

In addition, why should you cave to absurd demands that are placed. If I demand banana hammock photos to fight, and someone balks, do I call them a pussy because they don't want dong thong photos floating around? Are they "ducking" because I make weird and creepy demands that are not normal. Mayweather has made no effort to clean up boxing other than to use it as a tool to avoid fights/make extra demands. He is either amazingly stupid or ducking. lol at any other reason.
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:53 PM   #2105
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Because some people are aware that other cultures don't have the same beliefs that they do and are aware. Lyoto Machida has come out saying that he drinks his own piss. That is completely ******ed. Believing that losing blood makes you weaker (factually true) and that a smaller person losing a larger relative amount of blood would put him at a disadvantage is also factually true. So to think that a belief that has a basis in science would be misinterpreted by someone whose culture has a systematic lack of understanding of science/nutrition/anything else that doesn't seem like voodoo would just be common ****ing sense.

In addition, why should you cave to absurd demands that are placed. If I demand banana hammock photos to fight, and someone balks, do I call them a pussy because they don't want dong thong photos floating around? Are they "ducking" because I make weird and creepy demands that are not normal. Mayweather has made no effort to clean up boxing other than to use it as a tool to avoid fights/make extra demands. He is either amazingly stupid or ducking. lol at any other reason.
Sorry but this is an awful awful analogy. The blood tests actually have a function, posiing for picture of any kind have absolutely no function in a fight.

So if everybody else Mayweather fights for the rest of his career agrees to the olympic testing will people still obsolve Manny? While Manny might be smaller than Mayweather we aren't talking about a HW and WW, we're talking about a nomral size WW and a small WW. They probably walk around at a difference of about 10 pounds, the amount of blood % difference that the 2 would have drawn is minimal.

I honestly don't care if Manny takes the tests or not, but it's ******ed that people want to put so much blame on Mayweather and minimal blame on Pacquiao.

To add about the PPV draws. Mayweather/De La Hoya did almost 2.5x as many buys as Pacquiao/De La Hoya, both did roughly the same # against Hatton. Pacquiao/Cotto did 1.25 mil, while Mayweather/Mosley did 1.4, and Mayweather/Marquez did 1 mil while Pacquiao/Clottey did 700k. I think Mayweather has proved he's a slightly bigger draw than Pacquiao and the fact that he's 41-0 says he should demand more than Pacquiao.

Another thing people talk about Mayweather not fighting Mosley until now, when Mayweather was moving up weight classes he used to constantly call out Mosley but Mosley never wanted to fight Mayweather while Mayweather wasn't a big name. Nobody brings that up, but when Mosley calls out Mayweather and Mosley waits a while before fighting him, Mayweather ducked him. Mosley also called out Pacquiao, but nobody accused Pac of ducking Mosley.
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:15 PM   #2106
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by Thremp View Post
Apparently you are unaware of how Pac's neck muscles look.
I can't tell if you're seriously using neck muscles as a reason Pac is on the juice...

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Originally Posted by pokeriseasy View Post
What changed since their last fight is that Floyd just did 1.4 million buys while Pac did 700k. Also Floyd wanted blood tests up until the day of the fight last time but compromised to 14 days but now doesn't want to compromise. Instead of asking why Floyd all of a sudden changed his mind why don't people ask why last time Pac would only do blood testing up until 24 days but now all of a sudden is willing to do 14 days? Why is 14 days ok this time around but wasn't last time?
The better question is "Why was 14 days ok for Floyd before and not now?"

Fighter A: I demand X!
Fighter B: No, I'll only do Y!
...
Fighter B, months later: Ok, I'll do X!
Fighter A: **** you! Now I demand Z!

Fighter A is clearly in the wrong here, and I don't know what to say if you can't see that. Fighter B deserves plaudits for stepping up and agreeing to a highly unusual demand. Fighter A deserves to be called a ***** for changing his demands as soon as Fighter B agrees to his previous demands.

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Mosley wasn't available for Pac but he was available for Mayweather, I don't get it? Did Pacquiao sign his fight with Clottey before the Mosley/Berto fight fell through?
Yes, that's really not hard to understand.

Manny is being weird about the blood tests, but if this fight never happens close to 100% of the blame has to be on Floyd.

*Making ridiculous demands is one thing.
*Making ridiculous demands that you have never, ever demanded of any other opponent before, and that are basically unprecedented in the sport is blatant ducking.
*Making ridiculous unprecedented demands that you've never made before, then having your opponent agree to them after a while, then changing those demands AGAIN is even more blatant ducking.

It's not swinging off Pac's nuts to clearly place the blame on Floyd. He deserves the lion's share of the blame.

Last edited by DannyOcean_; 05-24-2010 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:19 PM   #2107
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Furthermore, as has already been covered, random blood tests up to 14 days before the fight and immediately after the fight are essentially the same thing as random tests. There's no drug in the world that you can use for 14 days prior to a fight to gain a clear advantage, and especially no drug you can use for 14 days AND gain a clear advantage AND not test positive immediately after the fight. (assuming you'd ever test positive)
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:26 PM   #2108
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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I think Mayweather has proved he's a slightly bigger draw than Pacquiao and the fact that he's 41-0 says he should demand more than Pacquiao.
+1; As Mayweather is the bigger draw he gets to be more demanding. As for the blame game I agree that both Pacquiao & Mayweather camps deserve equal heat for not coming to terms for a fight. Mayweather is throwing out excessive conditions, but I don't buy that It'd give Pacquiao a huge disadvantage to budge on the issue. From what I know about the Olympic testing the blood drawn is minimal and shouldn't have much physical consequences, though it seems like it will bother Pac-man mentally.

With the situation where it is it would be in Pacquiao's best interest to accept the 14 day suggestion since he has more to lose in this. If the two don't fight Mayweather may be remembered as an undefeated coward by some, but the cheating shadow that would be cast on Pacquiao's career would be far more damaging. I still think the fight will happen as both sides would be foolish to miss out on an $80 million purse split. I am, however, really hoping that the situation will resolve itself soon as this will be the most anticipated bout since Tyson v Lewis which was a huge disappointment. This is just what boxing needs, lest that ufc garbage is allowed to take over.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:36 PM   #2109
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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With the situation where it is it would be in Pacquiao's best interest to accept the 14 day suggestion since he has more to lose in this. If the two don't fight Mayweather may be remembered as an undefeated coward by some, but the cheating shadow that would be cast on Pacquiao's career would be far more damaging.
Disagree entirely. If the fight doesn't happen, Pacquiao will still be remembered for his wars at lightweight with the Mexicans and his unreal two year run through the welterweight division which was both unexpected and highly entertaining. Try to find me a more exciting fighter in the last 10 years. You can't.

Mayweather would ultimately retire as the hated villain. Purists will applaud his incredible skillset and style, casual fans will berate him for his outlandish attitude and perceived reluctance to test himself. When is the last time Floyd fought in a fight where the outcome wasn't painfully obvious and predictable? Hatton maybe...but honestly, probably more like Jose Luis Castillo, back in 2002. All the while, he's had no reservations about calling himself the GOAT, which is downright sickening.

Floyd's reputation will no doubt take the greater hit.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:41 PM   #2110
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

At the very least, Mayweather has created a scary precedent for future prizefights by basically undermining the entire jurisdiction and legitimacy of state athletic commissions. Why do they even exist if their regulations are no longer relevant and effectively ignored entirely?
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Old 05-25-2010, 02:51 AM   #2111
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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With the situation where it is it would be in Pacquiao's best interest to accept the 14 day suggestion since he has more to lose in this.
The recent development is that Manny agreed to 14 days and Floyd said his new demand is random blood testing up to the day of the fight.
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:52 AM   #2112
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Disagree entirely. If the fight doesn't happen, Pacquiao will still be remembered for his wars at lightweight with the Mexicans and his unreal two year run through the welterweight division which was both unexpected and highly entertaining. Try to find me a more exciting fighter in the last 10 years. You can't.

Mayweather would ultimately retire as the hated villain. Purists will applaud his incredible skillset and style, casual fans will berate him for his outlandish attitude and perceived reluctance to test himself. When is the last time Floyd fought in a fight where the outcome wasn't painfully obvious and predictable? Hatton maybe...but honestly, probably more like Jose Luis Castillo, back in 2002. All the while, he's had no reservations about calling himself the GOAT, which is downright sickening.

Floyd's reputation will no doubt take the greater hit.
Come on you can't say the outcome was obvious when he fought Mosley. Mosley was coming off a fight where he destroyed Margarito who was considered the best WW at the time. The power Mosley brings and his speed made the fight very interesting on paper, and for 2 rounds Mosley showed it, winning the 1st round and dominating the 2nd round and buckling Floyd's legs twice with big right hands. It's not like Mayweather fought Mosley after he looked terrible, he was considered top 3 or 4 P4P going into that fight. Just because Mayweather won easily you can't just dismiss Mosley as a real threat.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:08 AM   #2113
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

He was less than 25% to win the fight. Very similar to all of Mayweather's other opponents. I can't find historical odds on Mayweather fights (mebbe someone can), but exactly how close did people think it'd be on paper. IIRC Mayweather was expected to take care of Mosley just as easily as the last few opponents.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:17 AM   #2114
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Come on you can't say the outcome was obvious when he fought Mosley. Mosley was coming off a fight where he destroyed Margarito who was considered the best WW at the time.
Mosley is old bro. That's a fact, just like Mayweather is afraid to fight Pacquiao
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:34 AM   #2115
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Mosley is old bro. That's a fact, just like Mayweather is afraid to fight Pacquiao
How did Mosley look in his fight before he fought Mayweather? Everyone said Mosley was old when he took on that fight and he was actually bigger dog to Maragarito than he was to Mayweather, and Mosley walked right through him.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:39 AM   #2116
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Mayweather picks his opponents well and whenever he is faced with anything resembling a threat to him he gets everything in the fight stacked in his favour, like getting De la Hoya to drain himself or getting Hatton out of his comfort zone at light-welter or beating up the little guy that had only fought at light-weight until PBF got him at 147.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:40 AM   #2117
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Come on Thremp you can't be serious, Mosley was considered on the same level as Marquez, Hatton, De La Hoya, Baldomir and Judah at the time they fought Mayweather? Maybe Hatton, and Judah put up a better fight than many expected but who gave Marquez, De La Hoya and Baldomir any chance? In the first 2 rounds Mosley did more damage to Mayweather then he had done to him in those 5 fights combined excluding the Judah fight.
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:43 AM   #2118
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Mayweather picks his opponents well and whenever he is faced with anything resembling a threat to him he gets everything in the fight stacked in his favour, like getting De la Hoya to drain himself or getting Hatton out of his comfort zone at light-welter or beating up the little guy that had only fought at light-weight until PBF got him at 147.
Lol, this is a prime example of people disliking Floyd and hanging from Pacquiao's nuts. Floyd fought De La Hoya at 154 pounds, Mayweather's only fight ever at 154 he moved up to fight De La Hoya. When Pac fought De La Hoya it was at a 145lb catchweight. So who forced De La Hoya to drain themselves for a fight?
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:45 AM   #2119
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Lol, this is a prime example of people disliking Floyd and hanging from Pacquiao's nuts. Floyd fought De La Hoya at 154 pounds, Mayweather's only fight ever at 154 he moved up to fight De La Hoya. When Pac fought De La Hoya it was at a 145lb catchweight. So who forced De La Hoya to drain themselves for a fight?
Pacquiao destroyed De La Hoya though, Mayweather just backed off and counter punched him
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:52 AM   #2120
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Lol, this is a prime example of people disliking Floyd and hanging from Pacquiao's nuts. Floyd fought De La Hoya at 154 pounds, Mayweather's only fight ever at 154 he moved up to fight De La Hoya. When Pac fought De La Hoya it was at a 145lb catchweight. So who forced De La Hoya to drain themselves for a fight?
you really trying to dispute that in all PBF fights that there is any sort of threat to him he gets almost everything stacked in his favour?

what about hatton who is/was absolutley terrible at 147 and the little guy that only ever fought at LW until PBF ?
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:57 AM   #2121
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Pacquiao destroyed De La Hoya though, Mayweather just backed off and counter punched him
What does that have to do with anything? Marty said Mayweather made De La Hoya drain himself to fight him, when Mayweather actually moved up in weight to fight De La Hoya while it was actually Pacquiao who made De La Hoya drain himself for their fight. Even in his fight before he fought Pacquiao he fought Steve Forbes at a 150lb catchweight. Looking at De La Hoya's fights he hadn't even fought at 147 since either 2001 against Gatti or 2000 against Mosley. So he hadn't fought at WW in over 7 years before he fought Manny and on top of that had to fight at 145 to fight Manny. And still people want to act like that win was impressive. De La Hoya killed himself trying to make that weight and paid for it in the ring.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:03 PM   #2122
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Come on Thremp you can't be serious, Mosley was considered on the same level as Marquez, Hatton, De La Hoya, Baldomir and Judah at the time they fought Mayweather? Maybe Hatton, and Judah put up a better fight than many expected but who gave Marquez, De La Hoya and Baldomir any chance? In the first 2 rounds Mosley did more damage to Mayweather then he had done to him in those 5 fights combined excluding the Judah fight.
Yes. Are you just a complete rank novice or something?
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:03 PM   #2123
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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What does that have to do with anything? Marty said Mayweather made De La Hoya drain himself to fight him, when Mayweather actually moved up in weight to fight De La Hoya while it was actually Pacquiao who made De La Hoya drain himself for their fight.
now you know why they call me martymc1LOL.

my mistake about DLH.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:04 PM   #2124
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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you really trying to dispute that in all PBF fights that there is any sort of threat to him he gets almost everything stacked in his favour?

what about hatton who is/was absolutley terrible at 147 and the little guy that only ever fought at LW until PBF ?

About Mayweather/Hatton, Mayweather's previous fight before fighting Hatton was at 154 against De La Hoya, was Mayweather really supposed to go from fighting at 154 for 1 fight all the way down to 140 for his next fight? Be realistic, he and Hatton met in the middle, 1 moved down a weight class the other moved up. Also nobody likes to mention that Hatton was actually the WBA Welterweight champ when he fought Mayweather because he beat Luis Collazo for that belt about 18 months before he fought Mayweather.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:07 PM   #2125
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Yes. Are you just a complete rank novice or something?
No you are just completely wrong. Nobody thought Marquez had any chance, nobody thought De La Hoya or Baldomir had any chance. Zab Judah was an interesting opponent but some of the shine came off of him after he lost to Baldomir, maybe some people thought Hatton had a chance but most people knew better. You can't sit here and say when you heard Mayweather was fighting Maraquez, De La Hoya and Baldomir you thought there was a decent chance they could win, and just as a good of a chance as Mosley had. That would just be insane.
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