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Old 05-02-2010, 03:34 AM   #1751
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

I think many of you guys are too pessimistic. Saying every elite fighter and all of the ATP top 500, etc, is going waaaaaaaaaay overboard.

there are a good number of athletes in every sport that dope. But assuming guilt because of talent level is dumb. You're assuming way too much based on what... that you really think everybody must do it?
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:03 AM   #1752
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by Richard Tanner View Post
This is just 8 different layers of stupid. You have no proof of anyone being on roids, yet arbitrarily assume (because they're elite athletes?) that they are or must be.

They're both clean until we get tests, photo, or testimony to the contrary (to the extent it constitutes proof).
LOL, the one assuming rampant PED use among elite athletes in big money sports, especially one where your opponent is trying to bash your head in, is 8 layers of stupid, LOLOLOLOLOL, so naive and that is being kind.

Its certainly possible that they are both clean. But in a sport where there is effectively no drug testing and where we have boxers using PEDs and boxers not using PEDs, I'm going to assume its highly unlikely that the "natural" talent level of some of the non-PED boxers is so much greater than the other boxers who are also naturally very good AND using PEDs that they will be able to dominate to the extent that Pacman and PFB have. Yeah I don't know anything for sure, but I think the odds are clearly much greater than >50%, so that is what I am going to "assume." Call me stupid, I guess.

And if they are both completely clean, then PFB's argument is 10X stronger than Pacman's so don't even know what the point of your post is. Yeah, I actually do think the biggest fight of the decade would be an excellent time to make a statement about the sport being clean if we are living in your world. If we are pretending they are clean and Olympic drug testing is very effective, certainly no reason to be opposed to it. Thought Pacman was supposed to be the good guy who wanted to be a role model, and do so much good that he is willing to step away from boxing. Why wasn't this HIS idea? Why is the "bad guy" having to try to clean up the sport and show the children that you can be the best in the world without taking any short cuts? In that world, Pacman's excuse is a total joke, and in the best case scenario, he is a complete and utter moron.
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:15 AM   #1753
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by Richard Tanner View Post
This is just 8 different layers of stupid. You have no proof of anyone being on roids, yet arbitrarily assume (because they're elite athletes?) that they are or must be.

They're both clean until we get tests, photo, or testimony to the contrary (to the extent it constitutes proof)
.
So someone who said Arod was on PEDs between 2003-2008 was "8 different layers of stupid," but in 2009 they became....... slightly less stupid? K, keep burying your head in the sand and looking for "juiced balls," certainly not in anyone's interest to keep any of that stuff buried.
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:34 AM   #1754
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by DannyOcean_ View Post
I think many of you guys are too pessimistic. Saying every elite fighter and all of the ATP top 500, etc, is going waaaaaaaaaay overboard.

there are a good number of athletes in every sport that dope. But assuming guilt because of talent level is dumb. You're assuming way too much based on what... that you really think everybody must do it?
my point is I'm not basing it on talent level.
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Old 05-02-2010, 05:12 AM   #1755
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Mayweather-Pacquiao is going to live up to the hype and more IMO. Pacquiao will genuinely test floyd like nobody has and floyd will step up to the occasion once he gets manny's rhythm down.

If only there were still 15 rounders...

Last edited by $kill Game; 05-02-2010 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 05-02-2010, 05:15 AM   #1756
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

While I think a much higher percentage of professional athletes have taken PED's than most of the public would like to admit through personal experience, I would definitely bet against PBF having it in his history in a 1 to 1 bet.

Comparing the boxers usage of steroids to a baseball players is totally off base in my opinion. It would be closer to a cyclists reasoning, and if you are saying that a baseball players motivation is the same as a cyclists, you are just wrong.


A couple of points against "older" boxers being on steroids:

Until somewhat recently, steroids where pretty rudimentary. They were hormones that made you gain muscle for the most part. For someone who has been boxing at a super elite level their whole lives (not elite like college superstar but top 5 in the whole country at every age category their whole life) to decide to need an advantage that isn't as common as take testosterone to build muscle, is way less likely than a regular athlete.

For the record, I used to laugh at people that cursed Bonds while claiming Arod as the clean one arguing that just because a guy isn't 250 pounds doesn't mean anything. I argued that PED's were incredibly common in professional sports having many friends that were division 1 athletes and one friend that was a relief pitcher in MLB who I knew for a fact used steroids.

I just think it is way less likely that the majority of middleweight boxers have used drugs to attain the level of success they have. I know Mosely was linked to Balco but keep in mind what they were doing was cutting edge at the time.

Until not too long ago Olympic athletes were still regularly testing positive for Deca which nobody with any knowledge of steroids would take if they planned on being tested within 18 months. It is only pretty recently that the drugs have gotten to the level of not testing positive and also being specified for specific athletic endeavors such as something that would offer goals other than purely gaining muscle.

I'm not saying that Mayweather couldn't have taken Winstrol or something similar and timed it so he wouldn't test positive. It is very much possible and would have been easy. I'm just saying that until this decade, it was way less available and there is no way it is more likely than not.

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Old 05-02-2010, 05:48 AM   #1757
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

i can't tell, your wording is a little confusing. you're comparing boxing to cycling? Cycling is perhaps the most PED riddled sport of all.

Not sure why the motivation is any different either. competitive drive, ego, $$$.
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Old 05-02-2010, 06:07 AM   #1758
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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i can't tell, your wording is a little confusing. you're comparing boxing to cycling? Cycling is perhaps the most PED riddled sport of all.

Not sure why the motivation is any different either. competitive drive, ego, $$$.
No not at all.

Thremp compared cycling to baseball when comparing the usages of drugs in sports. I'm saying that is a bad comparison.

I am saying that boxing is closer to cycling in what positive effects one could garner from drugs and that would be completely different than the manner that baseball players use drugs.

One benefits from the anaerobic effects of certain kinds of drugs, and the other benefits from the aerobic stamina that results from a completely different category of drugs.


Edit:

And while I acknowledge there is a chance that more boxers than I assume have been using EPO to improve stamina, I do not think it is an obvious assumption that because boxers fight at a seemingly controlled pace for 36 minutes at a 3/1 work/rest ratio, it is obvious enough to accuse them all without any sort of anecdotal evidence.

Boxers have been doing this for many decades before performance enhancing drugs existed for much longer durations than today.

While I am not denying wide spread drug use in professional sports, I am merely stating that it is wrong to say it is more likely than not that Mayweather has a history of drug use to help his career. It is very likely that he was naive of the growing problem in sports and decided that he may be at a disadvantage and wanted to make sure he was on a level playing field

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Old 05-02-2010, 06:14 AM   #1759
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by cpitt398 View Post
Until somewhat recently, steroids where pretty rudimentary. They were hormones that made you gain muscle for the most part. For someone who has been boxing at a super elite level their whole lives (not elite like college superstar but top 5 in the whole country at every age category their whole life) to decide to need an advantage that isn't as common as take testosterone to build muscle, is way less likely than a regular athlete.

.
I can tell you this with reassurance, for boxing in my knowledge, personal view and perspective, most top boxers are far from considering taking anything like steroids. And not only that, but once you make it to that level, that testing is in place for even junior aged fighters at the highest qualifiers and tours. In 12 of the last finals fights in our nationals recently here for boxing in Canada, 8 of those matches were randomly tested. And I'm not just talking for steroid use. Our banned substance list is huge. I'm talking yes steroids, but also things most wouldn't ever consider likely, like cough syrups or antihistamines for ephedrine content, or something as simple as Advil because of the anti inflammatory properties. Caught, you are banned, DQ'd and disgraced.

What happens at the top professional levels I do not know, but they are basically catching up to us as far as enforcement goes. (let's remember, pro boxing has no one oversight committee like we do, no one governing body...there are many many and the rules vary with them)

I could only make assumptions as to why it isn't as rampant as so many think it is in other sports, a lot having to do with the types of skill elements associated, speed etc, the types of training necessary to get there, plus the oversight. But they'd just be that, assumptions.

But I also do not think it is near as bad at the highest levels of elite professional boxing as so many think. Yes, I'm sure it does exist. But should never be considered in the same sentence with a word like rampant, or with other sports where the track record is clearly there for it.
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Old 05-02-2010, 06:47 AM   #1760
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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What happens at the top professional levels I do not know, but they are basically catching up to us as far as enforcement goes. (let's remember, pro boxing has no one oversight committee like we do, no one governing body...there are many many and the rules vary with them)

I could only make assumptions as to why it isn't as rampant as so many think it is in other sports, a lot having to do with the types of skill elements associated, speed etc, the types of training necessary to get there, plus the oversight. But they'd just be that, assumptions.

I completely agree. You mention that professional sports in trying to catch up to amateur sports as far as drug testing is concerned and that is very much true.

For PBF to require olympic level testing will advance the sport. He is setting a precedent for a cleaner environment. Baseball had a union to keep testing out for as long as it did. Boxing has state requirements that have an incentive to make prize fights the most appealing to their state to get business.

If a fighter has the power to make a difference, it is noble for him to do so. There aren't many people that have this earning power to demand a change that may carry over to become a standard. I commend Floyd, whether intentional or not, for taking his enormous opportunity to demand a higher standard.

Nevada is in a position where it can require a higher standard and not put itself at risk since there are so many financial incentives for boxers to headline here.


I also agree that the skillset that makes someone a great boxer can not be improved with drugs as much as in other sports, more so with the lower weight classes.
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Old 05-02-2010, 07:01 AM   #1761
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Mayweather is great and certainly the better fighter, but Mosley gave a very poor performance. I expected him to lose but he hardly threw punches after the second round which I just can't understand unless the lay-off and the starting and stopping his training messed with his body. Maybe he just missed his roids.

I can understand not wanting to get hit by counters, but just standing there moving hands in a jittery motion waiting to time Floyd Mayweather is terrible. Mosley has looked like this in fights before against Forrest and Winky Wright.

He got hit by Floyd constantly anyway, so he would have been better off going to the body a ton and trying to make it a brawl. All the pre-fight mind games from the Mayweather camp worked. They said putting pressure on was playing into Floyd's hands so Mosley let him fight moving forward when he should have been on him close and pushing him back.

Obviously Manny would give Floyd a better fight. Not sure it will happen though.
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Old 05-02-2010, 07:13 AM   #1762
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Mayweather is great and certainly the better fighter, but Mosley gave a very poor performance. I expected him to lose but he hardly threw punches after the second round which I just can't understand unless the lay-off and the starting and stopping his training messed with his body. Maybe he just missed his roids.

I can understand not wanting to get hit by counters, but just standing there moving hands in a jittery motion waiting to time Floyd Mayweather is terrible. Mosley has looked like this in fights before against Forrest and Winky Wright.

He got hit by Floyd constantly anyway, so he would have been better off going to the body a ton and trying to make it a brawl. All the pre-fight mind games from the Mayweather camp worked. They said putting pressure on was playing into Floyd's hands so Mosley let him fight moving forward when he should have been on him close and pushing him back.

Obviously Manny would give Floyd a better fight. Not sure it will happen though.
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Old 05-02-2010, 09:03 AM   #1763
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Floyd is too scared to fight Manny, that's the bottom line. Floyd's legacy will be tarnished of he doesn't man up and fight Manny. Floyd is full of excuses and full of BS. Manny would destroy Floyd easily which is why Floyd is too scared to fight him
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Old 05-02-2010, 09:12 AM   #1764
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Floyd is too scared to fight Manny, that's the bottom line. Floyd's legacy will be tarnished of he doesn't man up and fight Manny. Floyd is full of excuses and full of BS. Manny would destroy Floyd easily which is why Floyd is too scared to fight him
after last nights performance i think Manny needs to fight Floyd more than Floyd needs to fight Manny.

after the 2nd round it was a supreme showing from Floyd (ok i know Mosley is 38) and the way he took that punch (maybe the 1st real dig hes recieved in his life) and recovered to beat the crap outta Mosley impressed me greatly.

he beat him going forward which is new for Floyd, and i for 1 have a new found respect for him.


edit.
i have seen him live V Hatton and was not as half as impressed with him before last nights show.

Last edited by unwantedguest; 05-02-2010 at 09:13 AM. Reason: props Floyd
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Old 05-02-2010, 10:09 AM   #1765
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Why wasn't this HIS idea? Why is the "bad guy" having to try to clean up the sport and show the children that you can be the best in the world without taking any short cuts? In that world, Pacman's excuse is a total joke
Exactly, this is where Pacquiao's cult of personality is so strong with his fans that you would think that Mayweather is asking for less testing to be done.
The sticking point for a $30 million dollar check being how close to fight time you will allow a blood test has to make someone objective suspicious of blood doping. Especially when the guy is known for having exactly what a blood doper would exhibit performance wise.
I would love to see Pacman KO Mayweather however to somehow twist this around on Mayweather though is just out to lunch.
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Old 05-02-2010, 10:16 AM   #1766
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Floyd is too scared to fight Manny, that's the bottom line. Floyd's legacy will be tarnished of he doesn't man up and fight Manny. Floyd is full of excuses and full of BS. Manny would destroy Floyd easily which is why Floyd is too scared to fight him
It won't be tarnished as much as it will be if he loses to Manny. Floyd could retire today and still be considered arguably the greatest of all-time. If he loses to Manny then most people will put Manny>Floyd.
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Old 05-02-2010, 10:21 AM   #1767
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Anyone (YB2009) who has this idealized view of their sport at the top level is just out of touch with reality and economics. The arguments for Mayweather doing this out of genuine concern are so convoluted and have to assume he's from such an unlikely to exist segment of the population (non cheaters who don't realize other people cheat) that its basically guessing at theoretical motivations that could exist.

PS: No one takes steroids for aerobic performance. Its to improve recovery. In the same way that baseball players take them. Please don't correct me with errors. kthxbai
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Old 05-02-2010, 11:20 AM   #1768
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Another thing that worries me is if Mayweather and Mosley does 1.5+ million PPV, then Mayweather may not agree to a 50-50 split. And w/o a 50-50 split I don't think Pac fights.
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Old 05-02-2010, 12:48 PM   #1769
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Anyone (YB2009) who has this idealized view of their sport at the top level is just out of touch with reality and economics. The arguments for Mayweather doing this out of genuine concern are so convoluted and have to assume he's from such an unlikely to exist segment of the population (non cheaters who don't realize other people cheat) that its basically guessing at theoretical motivations that could exist.

PS: No one takes steroids for aerobic performance. Its to improve recovery. In the same way that baseball players take them. Please don't correct me with errors. kthxbai
It's not an idealized view at all. I happen to think professional boxing is one of the sleaziest sports that exists because of the lack of oversight, in part due with having so many different sanctioning bodies, and has a level of corruption unlike few other sports. So before you make assumptions at least get a feel for what a person is speaking about. Or better yet, back it up with some facts or experience, not just conjecture.

As well I said I have no idea what happens at the highest levels of pro, and do expect there is some use. But that the use is gravely misunderstood by people such as yourself, "Zomg its got to be riddled with steroids ...it has to, cuz like look at baseball and football, and well its hard training so there. wtfurdumbkbai" ridiculousness.

What I am saying it that it is not really in the sport at the highest amateur levels. And gave some reasons to explain why. I am not naive to think it is just our little corner of the planet that is this way. For I have to say, I know of many steroid users, football players, other athletes right here in my city, yet across this whole country, the Unites States and any person I know even globally, and I do know a lot, have I ever run into one who is a steroid cheat. Do they exist? While I'm sure they do. But with so much testing, and so much lack of any results that were positive for use, it is a fair statement to make. In fact, most of the steroid users I personally know of and met, were these heavy weight lifting know all be all aggressive types not related to doing any sports. Just ya know, "get hooge. Get big, get strong, whatever the cost. if ya dont want to be big then yera moran, moran." Who's this sound like?

I don't completely have a physical reason for why it isn't in use more, because it could help with our level of training activity. But then again, most of us boxers are "brainwashed" if you will into believing mass is bad and heavy lifting and need for growth hormones would be a fools venture, especially when we forever are trying to make weight. That's just how many of us think. I don't agree with it, but it obviously is in our thinking. Visit any boxing training forum.

So does it exist in boxing? Yes, it does. Is it rampant like with other sports, no, likely not. Is themp in an argument for the sake of it again, just lashing out with a POV and thinking he's the smartest guy in the history of ever? Is he out of his depth in this one as often is, trying to pick innerweb fights in an effort to compensate for something lacking? Well of course he is, this is thremp, don't be silly. (Will i read his response? naw, he's a one trick pony)

and p.s. I think Mayweather is a douchebag. Can't stand the man. But he's a talented one, and I believe completely free of steroids and just using it for leverage against the ones that possibly are. That's just how the guy rolls in negotiations. And if it has a positive effect cleaning up any use in the sport, it is safe to put your money on...'by greedy accident."
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Old 05-02-2010, 12:50 PM   #1770
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Floyd is too scared to fight Manny, that's the bottom line. Floyd's legacy will be tarnished of he doesn't man up and fight Manny. Floyd is full of excuses and full of BS. Manny would destroy Floyd easily which is why Floyd is too scared to fight him
LOL
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Old 05-02-2010, 01:09 PM   #1771
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Another thing that worries me is if Mayweather and Mosley does 1.5+ million PPV, then Mayweather may not agree to a 50-50 split. And w/o a 50-50 split I don't think Pac fights.
This is my fear also trippy. I've been expressing it elsewhere for a while. The only fight in the history of boxing I hope the numbers don't match the hype. 2 large egos are about to step up to the table, and we know their history. If the PPV numbers are off the charts, or even real high comparatively, Floyd's incredible ego will make a 50/50 split a huge determining actor. And Manny's pride simply wont allow for it otherwise.

Really hope to be wrong on this one.
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Old 05-02-2010, 01:09 PM   #1772
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Floyd is too scared to fight Manny, that's the bottom line. Floyd's legacy will be tarnished of he doesn't man up and fight Manny. Floyd is full of excuses and full of BS. Manny would destroy Floyd easily which is why Floyd is too scared to fight him
Except Mayweather doesn't care about his legacy, he cares about the money. Those were his words on the 24/7 show.
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Old 05-02-2010, 01:21 PM   #1773
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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It's not an idealized view at all. I happen to think professional boxing is one of the sleaziest sports that exists because of the lack of oversight, in part due with having so many different sanctioning bodies, and has a level of corruption unlike few other sports. So before you make assumptions at least get a feel for what a person is speaking about. Or better yet, back it up with some facts or experience, not just conjecture.

As well I said I have no idea what happens at the highest levels of pro, and do expect there is some use. But that the use is gravely misunderstood by people such as yourself, "Zomg its got to be riddled with steroids ...it has to, cuz like look at baseball and football, and well its hard training so there. wtfurdumbkbai" ridiculousness.

What I am saying it that it is not really in the sport at the highest amateur levels. And gave some reasons to explain why. I am not naive to think it is just our little corner of the planet that is this way. For I have to say, I know of many steroid users, football players, other athletes right here in my city, yet across this whole country, the Unites States and any person I know even globally, and I do know a lot, have I ever run into one who is a steroid cheat. Do they exist? While I'm sure they do. But with so much testing, and so much lack of any results that were positive for use, it is a fair statement to make. In fact, most of the steroid users I personally know of and met, were these heavy weight lifting know all be all aggressive types not related to doing any sports. Just ya know, "get hooge. Get big, get strong, whatever the cost. if ya dont want to be big then yera moran, moran." Who's this sound like?

I don't completely have a physical reason for why it isn't in use more, because it could help with our level of training activity. But then again, most of us boxers are "brainwashed" if you will into believing mass is bad and heavy lifting and need for growth hormones would be a fools venture, especially when we forever are trying to make weight. That's just how many of us think. I don't agree with it, but it obviously is in our thinking. Visit any boxing training forum.

So does it exist in boxing? Yes, it does. Is it rampant like with other sports, no, likely not. Is themp in an argument for the sake of it again, just lashing out with a POV and thinking he's the smartest guy in the history of ever? Is he out of his depth in this one as often is, trying to pick innerweb fights in an effort to compensate for something lacking? Well of course he is, this is thremp, don't be silly. (Will i read his response? naw, he's a one trick pony)

and p.s. I think Mayweather is a douchebag. Can't stand the man. But he's a talented one, and I believe completely free of steroids and just using it for leverage against the ones that possibly are. That's just how the guy rolls in negotiations. And if it has a positive effect cleaning up any use in the sport, it is safe to put your money on...'by greedy accident."
Nice word bomb. But the only facts that are "known" are 1) drug testing even at the most advanced levels (cycling/olympics/etc) are almost completely ineffective 2) the incentives for cheating in boxing are massive 3) testing standards in boxing are much lower than other places 4) The repercussions are low. (See Mosley)

The idea that you're speculating why boxer's don't do drugs is a idealized view of a world you're projecting. You're relying on a bunch of nonsense (appeal to masses, etc) to try to come to the conclusion that boxing isn't like other sports when there is nothing inherent to suggest it wouldn't be and there are many structural arguments to suggest that it would be fraught to cheats (lack of testing, minor repercussions, money).
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Old 05-02-2010, 01:23 PM   #1774
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

i've never bought a boxing PPV but I definitely would for Floyd-Manny. i've purchased multiple ufc ppvs.

Last edited by capone0; 05-02-2010 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:42 PM   #1775
RT
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Originally Posted by Pwn_Master View Post

And if they are both completely clean, then PFB's argument is 10X stronger than Pacman's so don't even know what the point of your post is. Yeah, I actually do think the biggest fight of the decade would be an excellent time to make a statement about the sport being clean if we are living in your world. If we are pretending they are clean and Olympic drug testing is very effective, certainly no reason to be opposed to it. Thought Pacman was supposed to be the good guy who wanted to be a role model, and do so much good that he is willing to step away from boxing. Why wasn't this HIS idea? Why is the "bad guy" having to try to clean up the sport and show the children that you can be the best in the world without taking any short cuts? In that world, Pacman's excuse is a total joke, and in the best case scenario, he is a complete and utter moron.
If you want to get on Pac for not supporting heavier testing before, fair enough, but the idea that PBF is some crusader for justice just doesn't hold water. If you want to raise the level of testing because the issue matters to you, then that's great, but you need to behave in such a way that that's plausible.

From your first fight to your last fight, submit to higher testing yourself and ask that others to as well. That makes it awful hard to accuse a boxer of using the testing as an excuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwn_Master View Post
So someone who said Arod was on PEDs between 2003-2008 was "8 different layers of stupid," but in 2009 they became....... slightly less stupid? K, keep burying your head in the sand and looking for "juiced balls," certainly not in anyone's interest to keep any of that stuff buried.
Wat

If someone said "A-rod used steroids in the early 2000s because X" Where "X" is some sort of proof be in increase in muscle mass or a trainer/player saying he injected him, etc. then they have a theory and a reason to believe. If they just say it without reason to suspect other than "He plays sports at a high level" then you're just throwing accusations around. That's not what's going on though, seemingly absent any evidence, Pac gets raked across the coals and PBF finds a heart in regards to the steroid issue.
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