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Old 03-08-2012, 01:28 PM   #7426
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

I think Tyson could beat everyone on that list prime for prime but it really depends on what Tyson you are getting. When he jabbed and moved his head and actually boxed he was phenomenal. His combination of hand speed, reflexes and power had never been seen on the heavy weight level. Tyson had all the tools. His down fall was all up stairs. He stopped training to be a great all around fighter and he never really had that mentality to go to war with someone that gave him some resistance. Holyfield didn't really do anything all that spectacular against Tyson. He just stayed in his kitchen all night and let him know he wasn't going any where. Whenever things got tough for Tyson he quit, and that was the sad part. He definitely had all the tools though. Just couldn't keep it together. If he had Holyfield's heart, determination and work ethic with his own skill he would've been unstoppable.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:29 PM   #7427
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

some controversy around liston and the mob surrounding the ali fights. dunno what to think of that but he didn't strike me as a man you can instill fear into.

i could never see tyson beating Ali or foreman. Frazier and Liston is much more open for debate. I'd see Evander as a favorite too probably but I'm not certain.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:38 PM   #7428
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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some controversy around liston and the mob surrounding the ali fights. dunno what to think of that but he didn't strike me as a man you can instill fear into.

i could never see tyson beating Ali or foreman. Frazier and Liston is much more open for debate. I'd see Evander as a favorite too probably but I'm not certain.
I think Ali, Foreman and Frazier all depend on the mindset. It would have to be the mindset of the early Tyson where he was a student of the game and loved boxing. I think after awhile he hated boxing he just knew that it was his meal ticket so he kept doing it. If you go on strictly skills I think Tyson at his best skills wise could beat Ali because I think Tyson > Frazier on strictly skills and Frazier beat Ali and gave him everything he could handle two other times. Again the biggest question with Tyson would be heart and mindset. If you go off the actual heart he showed in real life fights that got tough then yeah no way he can beat any of those guys. If we could ensure that he had a clear mindset and wouldn't quit in fights in these hypotheticals then yeah I think he'd be able to win his fair share against all the greats.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:41 PM   #7429
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

I would fear for Holyfield safety if he fought a fully charged Tyson.

The last thing a smaller fighter like Holyfield would need is heart and determination .... it would result in a massive beating.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:41 PM   #7430
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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There was a lot of people who thought Spinks would beat Tyson
Unfortunately Spinks himself wasn't one of them.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:44 PM   #7431
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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I would fear for Holyfield safety if he fought a fully charged Tyson.

The last thing a smaller fighter like Holyfield would need is heart and determination .... it would result in a massive beating.
Yeah it would be interesting but I dunno Holyfield was as tough as they come. But yeah it would've been nice to see Tyson do more than try to just knock him out in the first 2 rounds then pack it in for the rest of the fight.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:45 PM   #7432
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Unfortunately Spinks himself wasn't one of them.
I just think he looked across the ring and saw a fully zoned Tyson staring back at him and thought .. OMG im going to be left alone with that guy in a moment.

Remember Spinks was undefeated and had beaten a previously unbeaten Holmes twice..

He never fought again after Tyson ....
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:50 PM   #7433
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Yeah it would be interesting but I dunno Holyfield was as tough as they come. But yeah it would've been nice to see Tyson do more than try to just knock him out in the first 2 rounds then pack it in for the rest of the fight.
Thats unfair ... you are talking about a fighter that had lost of love for the game ...and was merely fighting to make money.. he had only been out of prison for a year so i think.

I doubt if he even cared whether he won or lost by then.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:51 PM   #7434
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

frazier beat ali because he could take a life and death beating to dish out damage. tyson could never have done that.
Foreman sparks out Tyson. Tyson was even scared senseless of an old aging Foreman and refused to fight "that animal".
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:57 PM   #7435
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Tyson was -500 to beat Spinks. That's about the same as Pac vs. Bradley.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:02 PM   #7436
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Im going to stop sticking up for Tyson

Its easy to pick holes in him because there where only small glimpses in his career where you saw what kind of fighter he could have become.

He did not become that fighter ... so i understand why people believe the likes of Ali and Foreman would beat Tyson.

Saying Tyson had no heart is being memory selective for your own purposes ... i question whether Ali could have got past the Tyson early onslaught that would have surely come....

But thats me being memory selective for my own purposes
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:05 PM   #7437
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Tyson was -500 to beat Spinks. That's about the same as Pac vs. Bradley.
I understand that .. but upto that point nobody gave Tyson's opponents a hope ...

Spinks was the first fighter some people thought might cause Tyson a problem or two ...

I just think this focused Tyson a little more for this particular fight ...
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:06 PM   #7438
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Tyson was -500 to beat Spinks. That's about the same as Pac vs. Bradley.
Also ... do you really think Pacman is just going to steamroll past Bradley ?
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:15 PM   #7439
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Thats unfair ... you are talking about a fighter that had lost of love for the game ...and was merely fighting to make money.. he had only been out of prison for a year so i think.

I doubt if he even cared whether he won or lost by then.
Haha, have you been reading my posts? You are saying the same things I've been saying. I was just saying it's a shame that's what we were left with and not Tyson in a full mental state ready to roll.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:17 PM   #7440
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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frazier beat ali because he could take a life and death beating to dish out damage. tyson could never have done that.
Foreman sparks out Tyson. Tyson was even scared senseless of an old aging Foreman and refused to fight "that animal".
Yeah I totally agree. That's why I was saying in these hypotheticals does Tyson have heart and is he in the right fighting state mentally? If not it's not even worth discussing cause he doesn't beat any of those guys if he isn't willing to go to hell and back to beat them.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:20 PM   #7441
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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I understand that .. but upto that point nobody gave Tyson's opponents a hope ...

Spinks was the first fighter some people thought might cause Tyson a problem or two ...

I just think this focused Tyson a little more for this particular fight ...
I was younger but I don't remember Spinks being given too much of a legitimate chance vs Tyson and how do you come to the conclusion that Tyson was so much more focused for the Spinks fight than others? He knocked the guy out in 90 seconds! Fight didn't go long enough to tell if Tyson was focused or not. He just jumped on Spinks and Spinks wanted no part of Tyson that night.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:23 PM   #7442
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

On an unrelated note, maybe Manny and Mayweather can share a cell?!

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id...ile-case-champ
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:01 PM   #7443
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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I understand that .. but upto that point nobody gave Tyson's opponents a hope ...
Probably because Spinks was his first fight with a very good fighter. 4:1 favorite is still a significant favorite, kind of like Mayweather and Pac is to most of their opponents.

Speaking of Spinks, he's a perfect candidate when we talk about Tysons opponents being beat before the fight even begin. The guy was so scared to fight Tyson he didn't even want to leave his dressingroom.

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Also ... do you really think Pacman is just going to steamroll past Bradley ?
No idea. I think Pac wins this a large majority of the time which the odds reflect.
It's just a reflection on the probability of a victory, not to what degree that victory is.

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Yeah I totally agree. That's why I was saying in these hypotheticals does Tyson have heart and is he in the right fighting state mentally? If not it's not even worth discussing cause he doesn't beat any of those guys if he isn't willing to go to hell and back to beat them.
Yeah but thats kind of creating something that was never there. Tyson was always an anxious insecure person. Against inferior opponents that's not a big deal as he has little to be anxious about. Vs some of the mentally toughest athletes of all time that can match the athleticism it is.

A similar thing would be to say that if Wlad had Chuvalos chin he would beat X. But he just doesn't have it.
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:11 PM   #7444
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Speaking of Spinks, he's a perfect candidate when we talk about Tysons opponents being beat before the fight even begin. The guy was so scared to fight Tyson he didn't even want to leave his dressingroom.
I think you are not giving Spinks or Tyson any credit ..

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=1985&more=1
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:20 PM   #7445
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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I think you are not giving Spinks or Tyson any credit ..

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=1985&more=1
what? yeah I'm familiar with Spinks career. He's a very solid light heavyweight. My comment still stands though. He was afraid to fight Tyson and initially refused to even leave his dressingroom.

And how am i not giving Tyson any credit? For saying hes not the greatest of all time or that he would lose to Ali?


Spinks is BY FAR Tysons best win. I think that says a lot.
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:31 PM   #7446
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Im already liking you kingofcool ... i feel we will argue on just about every topic from now on

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He was afraid to fight Tyson and initially refused to even leave his dressingroom.
This is utter tosh ... where did you read this ?

I did hear he refused to leave the dressing room, but i heard it was because of Tyson's hand wrapping had a lump or something and they insisted it was re-done.

Apparently this infuriated Tyson ... which did Spinks no favours at all !
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:59 PM   #7447
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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Im already liking you kingofcool ... i feel we will argue on just about every topic from now on
If that topic is Tyson beating Ali and Foreman we just might.


Quote:
This is utter tosh ... where did you read this ?
He did ask for a rewrap, which led Tyson to punch a hole in the wall.

I didn't read it anywhere specifically. It's just a wellspread rumor/opinion. I also remember Lampley and Steward joked about it on some Mayweather broadcast.
Maybe it's just a rumor. I never saw Futch or Spinks confirm it.

It does mesh up well with how terrified and nervous Spinks appeared during his entrance though. He was without a doubt afraid, or at least appeared to be.
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:36 PM   #7448
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

So, Spinks refused to leave the dressing room, then asked for a rewrap, which led to Tyson to punching the hole, correct?
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:59 PM   #7449
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

Bert Sugar:

In 1988 undefeated heavyweights Mike Tyson and Michael Spinks fought for the undisputed title. Before the fight, Spinks' trainer, Butch Lewis, requested that Tyson rewrap his hands three times.

Tyson grew so agitated, he slammed his hand through a wall. Seated in the next room, where Tyson's fist protruded, was Spinks, who was "scared beyond scared," by the force of that blow, Sugar said.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb...g-boxing-mma17

But yeah, it's never been confirmed from what i remember. It's just one of those stories. Who knows if it's 100% true but I've heard it mentioned by historians, trainers and analysts.
Doesn't matter much. It's more of a fun anecdote. Spinks demeanor was that of a frightened man. Which doesn't matter much since i think prime Tyson would beat him regardless. It just says a lot about how Tyson was perceived. The idea that lot's of his opponents were beat beforehand due to folding mentally has some legitimacy.
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:30 PM   #7450
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Re: SE Boxing Thread (still waiting for PBF v. Pac)

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On an unrelated note, maybe Manny and Mayweather can share a cell?!

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id...ile-case-champ
No surprise really.
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