Despite his undefeated record, Calzaghe must be unsatisfied with his career. Typical Frank Warren fighter, getting a WBO title and defending it loads of times against weak opposition. Then he finally gets a big fight against a high profile opponent (Jeff Lacy) and completely dominates him. This is followed up with meaningless wins over Sakio Bika and worst of all, Peter Manfredo. A very good win over Kessler (great fight and it was a lot closer than people seem to remember). I suppose the win over Hopkins (I thought Hopkins won, man that fight was a horrible ugly mess) looks better now than it did at the time considering what B-Hop has done since. The Jones Jr fight meant absolutely nothing and was a sad sight to see.

if SE is gonna run a ***** fast food draft then we are going to do an all time boxing draft. you're all participating, no excuses. I know someone tried to get interest for this before and it fizzled out, but that wont happen this time.

will post an interest/sign up thread once the fast food/pokemon stuff is done with

When you talk about Tyson in a 2012 non-nostalgia boxing thread, you may as well go and talk about Phil Hellmuth as one of the world's best poker players.

Here's the attempt I made at it, maybe your effort will get the ball rolling a bit more: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/46...hread-1109841/

Thankfully ... there is no correlation between Mike Tyson and something like Hellmuth ...

They should never really be mentioned in the same breath again

I don't care what anyone says, the Hellmuth that won the 1989 World Series would have beaten anyone that night.

Tyson discussions are always fun to observe. As a little bait i'll throw out this question.

Out of these, who do you see Tyson being a favorite against prime for prime? Please try to state why hes a dog/fav instead of just "tyson was just a beast".

- Ali
- Louis
- Holmes
- Frazier
- Lewis
- Foreman
- Liston
- Holyfield
- Bowe

For fun I'll throw in Dempsey and Ibeabuchi too as it leads to interesting theories.

I think your being unfair to Tyson as his prime was not his true potential imo.

A few of those fighters reached their true potential throughout long careers but Tyson's prime can be argued to be when he was in his early 20's and still inexperienced.

I'd throw in Vitali K as well to that list - he would start fave against some on that list imo and him V a prime Tyson would be really interesting.

I'm not really putting that list together as "these are favored vs. Tyson". It was food for thought. Vitali can do very well against some of these guys but i avoided it due to the high risk of it turning into another bashfest against the "robots".

Tysons prime is what we've seen. Could he have salvaged his behavior post douglas if not for prison etc? Possibly, but we don't know.
My problem with Tyson is all seem to be based on some fantasies. We work with what we got. There's a million different paths Tyson could have taken with his career if not for going to jail, but in my opinion with Tysons personality it looked grim either way.

So please judge these matchups based on Prime Tyson. Not fantasy prime hulkamaniamegalodeon Tyson that only exists in your fantasy.

In short: I'm interested in how Tyson fares stylistically against these guys. People like to throw out hes the best yadayada, so i feel there should be interesting analysis as to how he beats them. (not judging myself, just genuinely interested in peoples thoughts)

Even if Tyson had some room for slight improvements, I'm not sure how much it would affect it all. It would be experience based as his physical style probably had it's peak around 25~ yo. He had a very unique style for a heavyweight and he would never age well.
So it's mostly experience (possibly toughness related) and strategy.

The problem is that most people will either think that Tyson was a true phenomenon in his peak and that his speed and power were such that just staying out of his way for 12 rounds wass itself a feat, or that he got "found out" and he just couldn't make up for his short height and reach against a genuine great fighter. ie they would have him as fave against virtually all of those on the list or virtually none of them.

fwiw I think he was scary fast in his peak with a decent chin and great head movement, so I can't imagine a fighter from decades before having much chance (when you think how much sporting science has moved on). Certainly, almost anyone at their peak in the black and white era would struggle to even survive imo - even Joe Louis. I would back Ali and Holmes to be favourite, maybe others would be close (like Lewis) - not sure really.

Yeah that's why im looking for some sort of analysis rather than "he was so fast". Like what weaknesses would either fighter expose and adapt to. Tyson-discussions usually caters to extreme statements and i want to get away from that.

I purposefully left out most of the true old timers as i feel the heavyweights are the ones that has benefited the most from advancements in "sports science". Most of the old guys were not even true heavies.
I kept Louis as he's very special and Dempsey because his style would make for a really fun fight.

One could also argue because Boxing is such a primitive sport where the athletes train close to exactly the way the did in the 50s, it's not as big of a deal as with football, tracks etc. It's mostly strength and conditioning that has improved during these years in regards to boxing. Not to mention the difference in competition back then when there was close to as many licensed boxers in new york alone as there is in the entire US today.
But that's for another day.

Tyson vs. Foreman?
Could Fraziers chin hold up enough to wear Tyson out with toughness?
How would a prime Tyson do against the Holyfield he fought?
How about Bowes ability to fight in close range?

'nuff said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Ilv2Aax8o

Watched that link and also some other videos of Tyson doing his baddest man on the planet ritual ..

Its pretty sad really ... he was basically seduced by the dark side ... he was not always like that ..

He basically became a cash cow for everyone and somewhere along the line he just hated and distrusted everyone.

Ali obviously had the tools to deal with a onrushing Tyson, but he was also fairly easy to hit at times ... if Henry Cooper's left hook can put him on his backside ... then so could Tyson.

Joe Louis was surely too small for Tyson, was he not around 14 stone ?? ... far too light to keep a prime Tyson off him.

Holmes is interesting ... he beat Tervor Berbick in 1981 by UD in 1981 to move to 37-0, Tyson aged 20 destroyed Berbick in 2 rounds in 1986.

Had Berbick gone down hill that much in 5 years ? and apart from a early one round TKO had never been stopped until Tyson... in fact he was never stopped again and fought on for a further 14 years !

Frazier - now this would be a interesting fight, 2 styles similar although i give Tyson the edge in speed over Frazier's durability ...

Lewis - ive always said that Lewis was made for a prime Tyson, Lewis used to hang is head out high when on the back foot and was just made for Tyson's combinations ... he might miss with 2 but the third and fourth would have nailed Lewis .... his style was just too upright and Tyson was just way too fast imo ...

I know Lewis would pour out that massive jab and try and tee Tyson up but i just feel he would have gotten under that jab and let the punches fly ... would not have been even close imo .. a bit like Tyrell Biggs.

Foreman - again hard to tell, could Foreman have bullied Tyson or would Tyson have had an easy night tee off against the bigger man ? .. i just dont know tbh.

Liston - again no idea, but my tinted Tyson glasses points me in one direction

Holyfield - i truly wish Tyson would have fought him before Douglas, maybe then Tyson would have focused for such a fight but by that time Tyson was all over the shop.

Holyfield was under 15 stone iirc ...and just a pumped up cruiserweight ...i just cannot think for a second he had the power or the strength to deal with Tyson's punches ... even Foreman staggered him around this time and how slow was he by this time ?

So the question is ... what tools did Holyfield possess that could trouble Tyson ? sure durability, but could he really survive 6 rounds and then come on strong ? ..im not too sure tbh.

Bowe was just a fat bully who should be removed from that above list asap

PS ... i probably just sound like your typical Tyson fan ... so apologies for that.

Yup ... everyone will have a different opinion depending on their personal preferences .

The bottom line is ... its impossible to really know how two great fighters from different eras would turn out for sure..

Im not even sure if we could class Tyson as a great anyway ... thats the sad part imo ... but history is full of real talent not making the grade.

I do believe that if Tyson had kept his focus and not totally lost the plot roughly after the Spinks fight then Lewis and Holyfield may have had different careers and spoken of so highly today.

The bolded is the interesting part. What made Tyson great was the excitement he brought to every fight. Whether it be a stone cold first round KO or hate filled post fight interview, there was always an eager anticipation to try and predict what would happen next. When you combine his entertainment value with explosive punching power it really gives you something to talk about.

The main thing that sticks out to me with Tyson is that he was probably the most likable "bad guy" to ever enter the ring. You just have to look at his history. There's not too many convicted rapists that would garner that much respect in any other sport. No matter what he did, almost everyone was rooting for him in some way.

I was pretty young when Tyson burst onto the scene and he captured the imagination of the sport in a way that I can't imagine will happen again (world-wide this is, Manny is pretty popular in his own country etc). Honestly, there was an aura of fear around him and whoever was next seemed like a sacraficial lamb. In the UK, many people didn't really want our limited Frank Bruno to go near him (though he actually aquitted himself pretty well).

It's seems insane for me to imagine someone being past their best at 24 but he was. So many distractions etc that he started to fade almost as soon as he became a global star. This makes it so difficult to judge him and, with his high intensity/speed style, even dropping a small amount can make a big difference. His stamina and chin seemed decent, but you have to question his "bully" mentality. If he had stayed focused and fit what would have happened when someone could actually match him round after round and the going got tough? The thing is, nobody was good enough to do anything more than survive when he was young. He barely lost a round.

I dunno, I think he'd beat almost every heavyweight in history more than 50% of the time when he was around 21 but we can never know. I may be slightly biased though, as the first dominant sports person you remember always seem better somehow (at least I find that!).

I totally agree about the fear aspect. Some of his opponents were so scared that they were done before the first bell. No one (besides Ali) had ever taken it to those lengths before.

I think that's why it was so interesting watching the build-up to the Lewis fight. Tyson was at the prime of making his hate filled statements and Lewis was totally unaffected. I will always remember the post fight interview that Tyson gave after getting knocked out. He couldn't praise Lewis enough and it was probably the most humble anyone had ever seen him. He almost seemed human. Maybe Lewis knew Tyson was just trying to sell the fight so he didn't let it get to him. Probably that and he also knew Tyson was far removed from being the vicious 20 something year old he was in the early 90's.

Re Lewis, he hardly ever seemed to get all that angry or aggitated by anything. I guess he shrugged off the comments pretty easily and nothing hit a raw nerve, plus as you say he knew Tyson was way past his best.

The one time I can remember Lewis getting all pissed off was in between losing to Rachman and getting the title back in the re-match. Racham said that he was being gay in doing or saying something or other (as opposed to actually being gay, if you see what I mean) and Lewis pretty much flipped. I seem to recall him saying "I'm more of a man than you will ever be, ask your mum!". There was something about two massive fully grown men talking like that that really made me laugh.

could anyone imagine Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Liston or even Evander ever being intimidated by Tyson?

Liston maybe? He quit on his stool and was probably even more of a bully than Tyson. The rest of them, not at all I guess unless they are damn good at hiding fear. It doesn't mean they would win though, just that they would at least give themselves the best chance that they could.

I think Tyson loses to all those guys you mentioned. Tyson was great against guys he could annihilate in the early rounds but he seemed to have alot of trouble and got extremely frustrated when fights went to later rounds. I don't see any of the fighters you mentioned being KO'd early.

I think his greatest moment was ultimately is biggest downfall ..

There was a lot of people who thought Spinks would beat Tyson, and for the first time ever i think people doubted Tyson and all it did was make him that more focused.

That night you saw a small glimpse of what Tyson could have become ..

But after smashing Spinks in 91 seconds ... i actually think it went to his head somewhat ..

He was with Robin Givens ( biggest bitch ever ) .. he split from Bill Clayton and sacked Kevin Rooney .. and joined up with the devil himself .. Don King.

After that ... the crap hit the fan ... he was surrounded by morons who where just attracted to his money and fame ... Tyson basically started to believe in what they where saying about him ...

This is when you started getting all this " im the baddest man on the planet " BS ....

You have to remember ... Tyson loved boxing in his early years ... he used to know everything about previous fighters and was not interested in the money ..

Its only when money became everything that boxing took a backwards step .... he just did not have the people around him that wanted to put boxing first anymore.