Some of the biggest collisions in youth hockey occur when people get crossed up and blindside each other, not even trying to hit them imo.

Ya, this. It's time.

I don't say that lightly. I've grown up around hockey and been a fan for 35 years and I know all the arguments about why it's in the game.

This year was my 5 year old boy's first year in hockey. As a stupid parent, I thought "Hockey 1" meant that they taught them how to skate etc. Turns out most of the kids have been playing for a year or two here in Maple Ridge.

My kid could barely stand and quit halfway though the year because he was so far behind and wasn't having any fun.

Now, I wish my parents would have forced me to play longer than I did, but I couldn't bring myself to do that to him because of the state of the game wrt to headshots, concussions etc. I always thought I would make him play a couple years to see if he took to it, but now I'd rather he didn't play at all.

As for DB, my brother played in Medicine Hat and his first shift ever as a 16 year old was in PG against Boogey in a pre-season game. The size differential was hilarious. My bro is/was a big kid and looked like a leprechaun lined up at center against him.

Derek eventually got traded to MH and Dan played a couple years with him there. He has nothing but great things to say about him as a teammate. Went for dinner with them both one night and Boogey couldn't have been nicer.

Speaking as someone who jumped into hockey at age 12 and played against kids twice my size routinely, I think some of you guys are over-reacting re: youth hockey. I took my fair share of hits and never really came close to a concussion. The hardest I ever got my bell rung was in practice when I hit my head on the boards pretty hard, but that was it. Granted I didn't play against the competition that I'm sure Geddy did growing up, but I don't remember very many dirty hits from behind taking place at all when I played. Some of the teams that we'd face would have a red "STOP" sign on the back of their jerseys to let you know that if you could see it, don't hit them. I definitely agree that moving the hitting age to 14 would do nothing but hurt in that respect, as we were taught not to blindside from day 1 and it seemed to breed good, clean hockey for the most part.

The counterpoint to this is that young kids may not need full concussions to sustain brain damage. The literature on childhood and adolescent neural development is still limited so it remains to be seen what simple acts like slamming the back of your head on the ice can lead to.

The question really isn't enforcers vs. general population. It's more about enforcers who chose to play in the NHL vs if they never played hockey at all.

Fighting is often used by players as a self-policing mechanism, so it has some use in the game. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy a good fight here and there. But for the sake of these players, you're right. As new research emerges about the dangers of concussions, it might be best to adjust the risk threshold appropriately.

On a side note, is it inappropriate/callous/douchey for me to hope that Boogey's death wasn't hockey related?

Well, I hit my head on just about everything imaginable and I didn't really suffer any side effects or consequences whatsoever (that I know of, anyway). I'm sure everybody is different, just like every hit is different. If you smack your head the right way then I'm sure concussions can result. Luckily I never did.

Eliminating fighting would put a lot of current players on the unemployment line, and teams would have to restructure. Not necessarily against it (although I do think it keeps some players in check), but that would be a big league move.

This. I think the biggest hurdle in eliminating fighting isn't its role in hockey, since the league could take measures to punish the sh*t stirrers, but the impact it would have on rosters and the product. Many (me included) like a good fight every now and then. I would still watch if fighting was removed, ldo, but fighting might be a big draw in more marginal markets.

after thinking about it a little, to echo some of the things that have been said i think the injuries in youth hockey are pretty rare. My brother started relatively early and played travel A ice hockey for i wanna say 7 years, and i played for five years and ive very very rarely seen someone have a serious injury like a concussion, torn ligaments, broken bones, seperated shoulders etc. The only really huge injury i can recall is my brother got a concussion and blacked out for 20 seconds or so. I was one of the smaller people on my team as well at 5'8 175, and i imagine theres even less injury risk for bigger players. Anyway i think the only time people really have to worry about serious injuries is in the midget division (14-18) when you have kids on either sides of puberty, and a lot of travel teams have 16 and under teams now where thats less of an issue. The funny and ironic thing i always joked about is how much i got injured snowboarding vrs playing hockey growing up. I had no real serious injuries really playing hockey but got a concussion, broken collar bone, broken wrist, and a broken thumb snowboarding in different incidents.

with regards to your kids situation, i was thinking it would be a good idea to enroll him into some hockey camps perhaps? that way he can practice and it doesnt matter if he falls since people will be there to help. He can develop his skills to catch up to the other guys, and when that happens i think hed enjoy it a lot more.

eliminating fighting would reduce the amount of jobs as a professional hockey player by about 0.

I agree with the fact it keeps players in check. I often hate that it's a 5 game suspension in my league, cause I have little ****s sticking me and when I stick them back they always comment on my size and then I have to remind them that's why they shouldn't be sticking me. But, I can't just beat the **** out them once and end it.

That said, I think the health aspects trumps the policing aspect by a wide margin.

+1, also i think its just a better look for the game. I mentioned this a lot of times in the regular season thread but its irritating that until the playoffs really got into swing the american media treated hockey like a WWE sideshow instead of focusing on the skill and talent the players in hockey possess. If fighting is banned fans can focus on the good aspects of the sport instead of the negatives.

Absolutely not saying no one gets hurt. I'm saying that the peak physical fitness afforded to an enforcer via NHL training, income etc. outweighs the risks of injury when it comes to mortality. That's not to say rules/changes shouldn't be put in place to protect the players further, it's just that I think there is a degree of hypochondria on display in these cases due to pretty alarming anecdotal evidence.

Ya, I could do that but with so many other sport options available to him I think I'd rather just focus on that. He loves baseball, soccer, swimming etc and all seem like good choices as well.

lol, this is the reason I stopped playing ball hockey this summer, until I got sucked back into it last week because my old team had three guys drop out. At least in the mid-division men's league I play, guys see my size and how I skate and I get left alone, so long as you don't look for trouble. But on feet, ffs, everyone's a tough guy. Skates are such a great way to distinguish good players from plugs.

This is probably true. Although I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be concerned over the new levels of idiocy guys like Downie and Cooke would reach. in b4 I'm told "they're already running around like morons," but I honestly think there's a capacity for it to get worse.

Actually, if you want my honest opinion, I've seen it in Bantam and Midget AAA over the last 5 years or so that I've been reffing. Fights now get 3-5 game suspensions, and match penalties are enforced for kids who mutually agree to take off their buckets before a fight (biiiiiiig suspension), so it's been extremely discouraged. The chicken wing elbows, jumping into hits and the stickwork I've seen lately would make most of you guys puke. And I really believe part of that has to do with an absence of deterrent, even at the 14-17 year old age group. Again though, I'm talking about AAA hockey, where a good chunk of these kids will play anywhere from Jr. C to Major Junior in the near future, so it's high level hockey. You don't really see this at houseleague, A or AA levels, where the pace of play isn't really quick enough to generate these types of scenarios.

I've seen a weird culture change in minor hockey in that respect. Big hits always induced a reaction on the bench, but now more than ever, kids are hooting and hollering like mad even over just mediocre hits, the chirping is as excessive as its ever been...I dunno, it's weird. Midget AAA used to be the best-kept secret in this country wrt entertaining hockey; now it's coming close to devolving into a three-ring circus. And I honestly believe part of this is due to the placement of body contact on a perverted pedestal. Teach kids from an early age how to properly separate the man from the puck and you demystify the experience. Let kids run wild at 12 or 14 without proper education or practice, and this is what you get.

I don't think so. I certainly hope it isn't brain trauma related because it would be an endless summer of media hand-wringing and reactionary rule changes.

Doesn't something like HCM seem more likely as a cause of death than something concussion related?

i think there's going to be fallout no matter what the cause of death ends up being, unless maybe it's something natural like an undiagnosed heart condition or w/e. but given everything we know about this, that seems pretty unlikely.

i doubt that fighting will be eliminated, this summer anyway. they might take steps to reduce the number of fights, and that will probably be a step in the right direction. while enforcers are mostly voluntarily entering into fights, they probably have to be protected from themselves. unfortunately it'll probably end up costing a lot of them their jobs. i think we're already headed in the right direction though, as you see fewer pure goons in the league than ever before, and there seems to be an emphasis on having tough guys who can take a regular shift without embarrassing themselves.

i think it'll be better if we get to the point where fighters are regular players who happen to be tough. and as you don't want your regular players getting hurt (concussion, breaking a hand, etc), you'll see less of them, and fights will be rare occurrences that happen for a real reason. a few minor tweaks and we could probably get there. i think removing it from the game entirely is problematic though, and i'm not sure if many within the league are even considering that.

Fights between real contributing players are the best anyways, they're usually pissed and they've got a reason to scrap.

See: Iginla, Jarome

plus the goon fights are kinda pointless, except for them being cool to watch or whatever.

i mean let's say Matt Cooke does something dumb and hurts a guy (that's a stretch, right?). well Cooke in most cases isn't gonna fight anyone, let alone a Colton Orr or something. so then Orr goes and fights Pittsburgh's goon or whatever. what's the point really?

it'd almost be better if those goon roster spots were used on regular dudes who can scrap a little, maybe someone closer to Cooke's weightclass that he'd consider going with. you might actually get some justice in more cases. obviously not with Cooke (or Avery, or the real weasels of the league), but with your average player who does something dumb or makes a mistake, and knows he has to answer for it.

Goon fights are stupid. I mean, Rob Ray and Tie Domi would duke it out and whenever they did it had NOTHING to do with what happened during the actual game. They weren't avenging some dirty hit or whatever. They were fighting because that's their job. Get rid of that nonsense.

also, see the Islanders/Pens gongshow when Gillies went insane. Yeah, what a shame it would be if he lost his job.

You know, the thing everyone forgets in this discussion is that a lot of enforcers were stars at a junior level...or at least they used to be. Both Domi and Ray were pretty darn good junior players back in the day. Obviously this is going way back, but Tiger Williams was a former 50 goal guy and 2 time 100+ point guy with Medicine Hat, and he was a 2nd round pick.

There was a definitive point in time where the tough guy was no longer required to show some hockey aptitude. Not sure where.

the game became much more difficult. my guess would be that tony twist is, to some degree, the game changer. he scored 1 goal in junior.

there's still a few guys who were solid junior players who become enforcers. i think coaches understand that they can't have their best guys fighting.

If Colin Campbell and his NHL discipline policy weren't both the biggest jokes of human existence, I don't think policing them would be too hard at all.

the colin campbell stuff is so ridiculous that i don't know where to begin. yes, he's bad. yes, the game is cleaner now than it's ever been. check out some youtubes sometime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPTEjPJOSfg

here's when men were men!