Just watched a lot of older tennis. One takeaway is the idea that Pete Sampras deserves a lot more credit than he gets in this thread.

If anything, he took himself out of this discussion by retiring at 31.

So my question is this. If Pete had continued to compete,what achievements would have put him in this discussion? Surely if he had finished, with say, 18 slams, we might discuss him much more. Had he if been able to do that, it's likely Federer loses a couple of his slams and falls, probably below Sampras. Of course we can't give Sampras any credit for things he didn't do. But if all their careers ended at 31, he's right in the discussion.

Also watching Sampras, I believe his serve, and his net game, are superior to any of the big 3. Nadal/Novak in particular have much weaker net games, but fortunately, it doesn't matter that much in today's game. Of course his groundstrokes are inferior to any of theirs. The racquets have changed, the court surfaces have changed, etc. But Sampras was an all time great.

It's also great fun that on youtube you can find footage of Sampras vs Federer, Agassi vs Nadal, etc. Typically neither are in their prime in these matches, but the matchups are there to watch and it's fun to watch the eras match up a bit.

So an argument from this that goes against Fed is that he benefitted from Pete retiring 'young'. Fed sticking around so long cost a slam or 2 to Novak/Nadal. But to Feds credit, his style developed better for surfaces that became less prevalent.

Sampras failure to have any success at the french open highlights how his game was not well rounded, but for fast court tennis he's in the GoAT discussion.

I think an interesting match to watch is 2005 US Open final. Agassi (age 35) lost against Fed (age 24) in the 2005 US Open final. Agassi won the 2nd set 6-2, and was up 4-2 in the 3rd before Fed won it in a tie break. After the 3rd set Agassi was spent and Fed was clearly the best.

Injuries plagued Agassi in 2005 (he would win only 1 event), but his US Open run that year was epic.

Peak Agassi possibly GOAT groundstrokes if only surpassed barely by today's best.

I remember watching that match, rooting for Agassi. I'll look that one up again.

sampras took the wrong cues from the zeitgeist in the sporting world that had this weird fetish about retiring at the top. he picked up one of the modern bigger rackets after he retired and was like, hmm, i didn't know you were allowed to do that. coulda extended my career a few years.

Not a good day for the Rafa people.

Boy I look great in this thread from 5-10 years ago
Lol kevin

Djok gonna win them all this year and slam the door

Crazy to think how big today's match might be historically. Nadal had the chance to take the all time lead in slams and have 3 more than Djokovic. Now Dokovic may pull within 1, and Rafa may never be the all time leader.

Will be a bit lol if Tsitsipas blocks Djoko's path. Not unlikely.

I think this means Novak is the only one of the three to win all the slams at least twice.

Rafa is missing a 2nd Aussie, and Fed is missing another French.

I agree today will probably play big in history of the GOAT. I think Nadal goofed today- + his loss to federer in the Aussie open final in 2017 will probably play big on the GOAT talk. Gotta be honest here, If Djokovic wins this french and continues great form.... Think he may somehow find the GS lead which is insane thinking he played against Fed and Nadal. Its kinda like how can you argue he is not the goat if he surpasses both.

I think Nadal is close to done. If he can't find some form over say the next 2 years and win multiple slams, think he will be passed by djoko. Fed seems done to me. It would be amazing if he made a slam final again but I think hes on the 17th or 18th hole. I just hope he can say goodbye with 100% fans in the stands and compete at a very high level (would be nice to see him make SF/finals of a slam) but I think its going to fall apart sooner rather than later for him. Even Nadal is 35 which is hard to imagine. One big injury and its over. I find it hard to think he can win a slam other than the French when he lost in the SF to Djokovic on a surface he has dominated on. I want to see Nadal win the GOAT race but its looking unlikely.

Think I would say Djokovic is GOAT as it looks now, with #2 going to mix of Fed/Nadal. Nadal on clay and slower surfaces while I would take Fed on grass + fast hard courts like the US OPEN. Its just too bad we couldn't see all 3 face off in their primes.

Yep. I've been basically team Nadal the whole way, but I have to admit it's pretty much /thread now.

bumped the old thread but this is the one i was looking for

You have him as that certain of a lock against Tsitsapas?

I will gloat once Djoko has won the tournament, should be an easy W in 3.

In "Big 3" vs "non Big 5" slam finals, the score is 24 to 1, (del Potro d. Federer, 2009 US Open Final)

In "Big 3" vs "non Big 3" slam finals, the score is 35 to 6:

del Potro d. Federer, 2009 US Open Final
Murray d. Djokovic, 2012 US Open Final
Murray d. Djokovic, 2013 Wimbledon Final
Wawrinka d. Nadal, 2014 Australian Open Final
Wawrinka d. Djokovic, 2015 US Open Final
Wawrinka d. Djokovic, 2016 US Open Final

Fyp

Stan won both slams against Novax going a set down.

yeah, Wawrinka d. Djokovic, 2015 French Open Final (not US Open)

I see no reason to think that Stef has any chance of winning tomorrow. Djokovic could win the next 4 majors and confirm himself as the one true GOAT. Federer is cooked and Nadal has won just 3 slams away from Roland Garros since 2010.

I somewhat agree. It’s also amazing that not one of the next gen or the gen after that have even put up any sort of fight against the three of them.

Novax doesn’t get dq he wins that with ease.

I really wanted Nadal to have his brief time as the slam leader. This really cost him a cool place in history that seemed right for him to have.

The GOAT debate will be much more interesting if they all end with exactly 20 slams. Hard to think that will happen as Rafa is probably still the favorite for the French in 2022 and Novak has to be likely to win more than 20.

Too early to start talking about Novak sweeping the slams this year? That would end the debate even moreso than him beating Rafa twice at Roland Garros or ending up with the most slams overall.

If all else remains the same then it would be interesting if there wasn't one guy holding:
- weeks at #1
- H2Hs
- Master 1000s

lol.

All grand slams at least twice (if he wins tomorrow)
Career slam
All M1000s at least twice (there's still some the other two have never won)

Agree with the above, last night did not change a ton for GOAT equity (and a single game never should) except for the fact that people love to crown the GOAT based on 1) whoever last won 2) # grand slams won

Am a Nadal fan but Djoko was always going to end the GOAT regardless of the result of yesterday unless he suddenly dies

I made some disparaging comments 4 years ago that I would like to walk back. My apologies to Joker voters.

He be the GOAT by the time its all said and done