Professional Wrestling Promotion Draft - Page 161 - Sporting Events and Fantasy Sports

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11-30-2009 , 05:07 PM

#4001

KDawg

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Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,978

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjw0586

Assani supports this long-winded post saying a lot without saying anything.

obviously you actually spent a decent time reading what I wrote as it was 2 minutes between when I posted that and when you posted this

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11-30-2009 , 05:35 PM

#4002

mjw0586

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Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 37,375

I read the whole thing. Reading is easy.

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11-30-2009 , 05:53 PM

#4003

MrOnizuka

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,750

On the topic of older guys getting underrated, it's pretty obviously true in the sense that picking mid card guys now is like picking John Smith from back in the 70s that no one will ever hear of again. But it seems like most of the guys in this thing got into wrestling early 90's(like myself) so these are pretty much the only guys we know.

It's not really fun to write-up stuff about guys you know nothing about. It seems to me like the good write-ups are for dudes that the guy picking them actually liked instead of just copy/pasting this Wikipedia article about how this dude dominated Mid-Atlantic Wrestling for 5 years back in the day.

For instance, I picked Don Muraco just cause I was running out of names that I knew and just looked at a list of WWF Hall of Famers and said, hmm that guy hasn't been taken yet. But I don't really know jack about him, and it's gonna be lame when all I have to write at the end is, "yea this guy looks good, lets have him be a face cause I have mostly heels." I suppose it's incentive to read up on him a little more, but I ain't doing that.

I just lurked those other drafts, but the most interesting part was when people would debate about people's styles and how they actually would complement each other on the field, not when someone would pull Calvin Natt out and say look at this sick PER and TS% I pwned you all. Kind of a new twist on the old numbers v. "watch the gamez" argument.

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11-30-2009 , 05:57 PM

#4004

gusmahler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MattSuspect

Now maybe this isn't the point of the fantasy thread. but keep in mind that guys like Buddy Rogers, Nick Bockwinkle etc just didn't have the same amount of experience that the new generation have. That audience was SO much smaller, sure there was the occasional WWWF show at MSG that sold out in the 60s 70s, but the guys of the last 20 years do 9 tv appearances a month, 20 house shows and the way in which wrestling is dissected and analyzed today is just insane. Guys like CM Punk, Nigel, Austin, Rock, are perfecting a craft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDawg

matt, the 60s/70s guys wrestled a whole lot of matches back then too and were working almost nightly. Cable TV certainly creates a different animal, but as far as in ring stuff, they had it pretty honed in on how to get their audiences into it. It was a more intimate era because there wasn't cable tv and the house show was the driving point of business. It was also different in that a lot of guys were keeping to kayfabe and that will create its own culture in of itself

KDawg is right here. They wrestled a lot more in the old days than they do today. 70s and 80s, the top guys would wrestle 5-6 times a week. Today's WWE wrestlers have much fewer shows than they did back then.

Also, I was mainly talking about drawing power. Buddy Rogers was a draw for over a decade. But he was a draw all by himself. He didn't have cable TV. He didn't have Vince McMahon. He had to draw crowds by himself. And he did, by making people hate him.

In today's WWE, the top guys are huge draws. But the mid-carders aren't. Hurricane was talked about just a page ago. Hurricane was funny and a decent wrestler. But people didn't buy PPVs because of Hurricane. They bought it because of the Rock, Austin, HHH, Angle, etc.

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11-30-2009 , 05:58 PM

#4005

sixfour

should be called sevenfour

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 74,770

there is one guy that i'm a huge mark of that i cannot believe hasn't been drafted yet, particularly given some of the others that have gone.

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11-30-2009 , 06:04 PM

#4006

iggymcfly

runs good at HORSE

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 26,042

Even though the guidelines in the OP suggest that we should treat overness the same from different decades, I think it's undeniable that wrestling has evolved in a positive direction in the last 30 years or so. I was trying to get a feel for some of the 70s NWA guys I was considering drafting and even though they were popular for a lot of years, watching their promos and matches just bored me to tears.

I watched one title match that was considered a classic and honestly over 85% of the offense the entire match was just punches. And when they'd try something different like an axe-handle off the top, it just looked really sloppy like they had no idea what they were doing. I think it's very possible that guys like Charlie Haas would have been pushed to the moon and received multiple world title reigns back then just for doing what they do now because the overall caliber of wrestler is better today.

I mean George Mikan was considered a pioneer in basketball and he dominated all the 6'6" guys in the early NBA, but he'd be lucky to even grab a starting job nowadays. I think the same thing holds true in wrestling at least to some extent.

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11-30-2009 , 06:07 PM

#4007

TheUntouchable

banned

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 23,975

Quote:

I mean George Mikan was considered a pioneer in basketball and he dominated all the 6'6" guys in the early NBA, but he'd be lucky to even grab a starting job nowadays. I think the same thing holds true in wrestling at least to some extent.

For the purposes of drafts we never look at things like this though. We aren't just going back in a time machine and bringing George Mikan here, he'd get ran off the court.

But if cloned George Mikan and raised him in today's society and adjusted for genetic advances, he'd have a good shot at being a decent pro.

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11-30-2009 , 06:16 PM

#4008

KDawg

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

I watched one title match that was considered a classic and honestly over 85% of the offense the entire match was just punches. And when they'd try something different like an axe-handle off the top, it just looked really sloppy like they had no idea what they were doing. I think it's very possible that guys like Charlie Haas would have been pushed to the moon and received multiple world title reigns back then just for doing what they do now because the overall caliber of wrestler is better today.

its impossible to translate a guy's move set that exists today to how it would've been in 1975 or 1955. Obviously innovations have occured over the years and there is also the big fact that the curtain was pulled back on wrestling a good amount over the past 15 years and that has changed things a lot.

What can translate though is how someone is on the mic and ring psychology as that in a way hasn't changed all that much over the years(or at least, the understanding of how to get over hasn't changed too much), and I think that's what people are basing the older picks on to an extent

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11-30-2009 , 06:17 PM

#4009

MrOnizuka

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,750

So after that post where I said I liked picking more modern guys and putting some thought into writing about it, I'm gonna be a total hypocrite at 194 and take:

Spoiler:

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11-30-2009 , 06:20 PM

#4010

KDawg

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**** you for grabbing wahoo mcdaniel

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11-30-2009 , 06:29 PM

#4011

littlekeed

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,538

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

Even though the guidelines in the OP suggest that we should treat overness the same from different decades, I think it's undeniable that wrestling has evolved in a positive direction in the last 30 years or so. I was trying to get a feel for some of the 70s NWA guys I was considering drafting and even though they were popular for a lot of years, watching their promos and matches just bored me to tears.

I watched one title match that was considered a classic and honestly over 85% of the offense the entire match was just punches. And when they'd try something different like an axe-handle off the top, it just looked really sloppy like they had no idea what they were doing. I think it's very possible that guys like Charlie Haas would have been pushed to the moon and received multiple world title reigns back then just for doing what they do now because the overall caliber of wrestler is better today.

I mean George Mikan was considered a pioneer in basketball and he dominated all the 6'6" guys in the early NBA, but he'd be lucky to even grab a starting job nowadays. I think the same thing holds true in wrestling at least to some extent.

Just curious... what match?

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11-30-2009 , 06:29 PM

#4012

iggymcfly

runs good at HORSE

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 26,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheUntouchable

Yeah, I agree. He'd have a good shot at being a decent pro. Probably along the lines of someone like Erick Dampier in today's NBA. And he was the Lou Thesz of his day. There was no one that even approached him in the 50s. So while you can give some credit to the older guys, you can't really just translate that main eventer in the 70s NWA = main eventer in the WWF circa 2000.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDawg

That's a good point on the moveset, I agree that it would probably change with the times somewhat especially if they weren't trying to protect kayfabe. But most of these guys were also vastly inferior on the mic and in terms of their look. The big "monster" top guys back then were 6'9". Put someone like Bobby Lashley into the 1970s and they probably give him a 5 year undefeated streak.

Again, I'm not trying to completely bash the older guys. I've taken some myself and I think there's definitely a place for them in the draft. I'm just saying that the balance is about right as is. Bruno Sammartino doesn't go ahead of HBK, he goes early in the 2nd round. Bob Backlund doesn't go ahead of Kurt Angle, he goes early in the 3rd. And while someone like Classy Freddie Blassie is still a very good pick in the 7th round perhaps even to the point of being a steal, we don't have to pretend like Johnny Valentine is way better value than Matt Hardy.

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11-30-2009 , 06:32 PM

#4013

iggymcfly

runs good at HORSE

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 26,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlekeed

Just curious... what match?

Meh, I'd bring it up if it didn't involve an undrafted wrestler that's likely to go soon. I guess classic might have been a little strong; it wasn't a MOTY or something, but it was the big title victory for a face who was considered decent in the ring, and the match was received very well at the time.

Even moving forward, I'd say that Hogan/Warrior from Wrestlemania is probably a worse-worked match than any PPV main event in the last 5 years. There's just been a really major evolution forward in recent years.

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11-30-2009 , 06:34 PM

#4014

MrOnizuka

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,750

I feel like that last pick kinda lacked my usual mark enthusiasm, so I'll make up for it with pick 195. Hit the music baby: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk0tm...eature=related

Spoiler:

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11-30-2009 , 06:35 PM

#4015

gusmahler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

Again, I'm not trying to completely bash the older guys. I've taken some myself and I think there's definitely a place for them in the draft. I'm just saying that the balance is about right as is. Bruno Sammartino doesn't go ahead of HBK, he goes early in the 2nd round. Bob Backlund doesn't go ahead of Kurt Angle, he goes early in the 3rd. And while someone like Classy Freddie Blassie is still a very good pick in the 7th round perhaps even to the point of being a steal, we don't have to pretend like Johnny Valentine is way better value than Matt Hardy.

Thing is, Buddy Rogers was a bigger draw than every old school guy you just listed, yet he was a 6th rounder.

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11-30-2009 , 06:35 PM

#4016

littlekeed

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,538

I think it's kinda ridiculous to say that guys like Harley Race, Terry Funk, and Jack Brisco wouldn't be major stars today (major champions of the 70s). Bruno is an interesting guy to bring up though because there is no way he would even get into the wrestling business today. He greatly dislikes what Vince did to the wrestling world.

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11-30-2009 , 06:36 PM

#4017

TheUntouchable

banned

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 23,975

Was Wahoo McDaniel even the best Chief available? When I saw the pic I figured it must have been the other guy for sure.

It'll make this thread truly epic if someone takes the other Bushwhacker before Onizuka has a shot to get him.

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11-30-2009 , 06:39 PM

#4018

MrOnizuka

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,750

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheUntouchable

Haha, yeah I was thinking about how dick it would be with the double picks to take two halves of two different teams and basically try to block it so you could "save" the other halves until your last picks and kind of get some more bang for your buck that way.

If no one takes the other guy, I'll take him with one of my picks next round though.

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11-30-2009 , 06:40 PM

#4019

Assani Fisher

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Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 48,128

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

Even though the guidelines in the OP suggest that we should treat overness the same from different decades, I think it's undeniable that wrestling has evolved in a positive direction in the last 30 years or so. I was trying to get a feel for some of the 70s NWA guys I was considering drafting and even though they were popular for a lot of years, watching their promos and matches just bored me to tears.

I watched one title match that was considered a classic and honestly over 85% of the offense the entire match was just punches. And when they'd try something different like an axe-handle off the top, it just looked really sloppy like they had no idea what they were doing. I think it's very possible that guys like Charlie Haas would have been pushed to the moon and received multiple world title reigns back then just for doing what they do now because the overall caliber of wrestler is better today.

I mean George Mikan was considered a pioneer in basketball and he dominated all the 6'6" guys in the early NBA, but he'd be lucky to even grab a starting job nowadays. I think the same thing holds true in wrestling at least to some extent.

What do you mean by "even though"? We were instructed to follow the rules in the OP and draft accordingly. I don't think the rules left anything open to interpretation: We are to assume that they'd be EXACTLY as popular in our hypothetical as they were in real life.

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11-30-2009 , 06:45 PM

#4020

littlekeed

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,538

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

Meh, I'd bring it up if it didn't involve an undrafted wrestler that's likely to go soon. I guess classic might have been a little strong; it wasn't a MOTY or something, but it was the big title victory for a face who was considered decent in the ring, and the match was received very well at the time.

Even moving forward, I'd say that Hogan/Warrior from Wrestlemania is probably a worse-worked match than any PPV main event in the last 5 years. There's just been a really major evolution forward in recent years.

This btw is ******ed. I've seen recent rereviews of old PPVs giving this match 4 stars and at worst it's a 3 star match.

Quote

11-30-2009 , 06:51 PM

#4021

iggymcfly

runs good at HORSE

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 26,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assani Fisher

Well, we're also supposed to be drafting them based on their skill and not just their overness. If the early guys have less in-ring ability, less mic skills, and a worse look, then it stands to reason that even if they had the overness of a main eventer in the 70s, they wouldn't have the same overall value to their federation as a mid-carder from today.

Also, a guy who was a huge main event star during the territorial days would have a lot less worldwide popularity than someone who's a star in the WWE today when it gets televised not only nationwide but internationally as well. If someone should get the same credit for main-eventing in WCCW as in WWE, then anyone who's over main eventing a ROH show should get the same credit as well.

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11-30-2009 , 06:51 PM

#4022

MrOnizuka

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,750

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assani Fisher

Ok, but the business has changed so much over the years and even mid-carders now might have more "national exposure" than the guys at the top in the 70s and early 80s. They certainly move more "merch".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that until Vince bought everyone out that wrestling was pretty much only popular in the South and some parts of the East Coast.

If you say that a dude is "as popular" now as he was then, does that mean that he draws the same number of fans that it took to sell out places in the South in the 70s? Or are you saying that he's going to be exactly proportionate and that he gets the same number of national/internationl PPV buys and sells out the places like Safeco Field like the top stars of the 90's did?

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11-30-2009 , 06:53 PM

#4023

KDawg

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

I don't think that they were neccessarily inferior on the mic, but more that they were geared towardss their audience. Some of the TV stuff that still exists from the 70s has some pretty rockin promos by guys, but its different to what we're used to seeing.

One thing that does need to be kept in mind is that until the 80s/90s a lot of guys were protecting kayfabe for the most part, so it leadss to a different promo style then what we see today. If you get the chance to watch some of the shoot videos that are pieced up on youtube, its worth watching as its pretty cool to see some of the older guys letting kayfabe go away and sometimes just letting it fly

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11-30-2009 , 06:53 PM

#4024

MrOnizuka

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,750

Basically, I think if we judge or vote on this at the end that popularity is a pretty hard thing to measure and shouldn't be the main element in saying how "successful" the fed will be. The stuff that makes people popular like ring work and look and mic skills and how it all fits together should be the primary focus, imo.

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11-30-2009 , 07:03 PM

#4025

KDawg

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheUntouchable

Was Wahoo McDaniel even the best Chief available? When I saw the pic I figured it must have been the other guy for sure.

the other guy is/was really good, but I would say that Wahoo is the better choice and had more success

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrOnizuka

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that until Vince bought everyone out that wrestling was pretty much only popular in the South and some parts of the East Coast.

wrestling was huge in Portland and in California(mostly san francisco) back in the day too. I've lived in teh midwest for most of my life and AWA was very big here in chicago when I was very young.

Detroit and Toronto were very hot for a good amount of the 70s and St Louis basically dominated the NWA belt for a very long time(lots of guys starting with Thesz were generally based out of St Louis until the late 70s)

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