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Old 03-20-2012, 12:31 PM   #1776
Krayz
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Originally Posted by chim17 View Post
2003 Vick played 5 games. 2002 Vick completed 54.9%, 2004 Vick completed 56.4%.

While he has improved as a passer, he was never Tebow bad.
almost 2x as high INT rate career tho
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:32 PM   #1777
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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almost 2x as high INT rate career tho
Probably has something to do with throwing catchable balls.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:32 PM   #1778
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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almost 2x as high INT rate career tho
INT rates are a massive variance fest so need a huge sample which we don't have in Tebows case
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:33 PM   #1779
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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wtf, throwing the ball better doesn't change him as a player. Just because I have a controversial opinion doesn't mean you can just spout things that make no sense. Can disagree strongly with my opinion is fine, but don't say things that aren't what I'm saying.
Leaving aside the tone of this, if his throwing mechanics became totally changed and his accuracy and range was transformed then he would be a different proposition as a QB, likely running a completely different offense and playing a completely different style.

Vick's 2010 year was an extraordinary leap forward for him, but he regressed from that again last year and it could be argued as an outlier more than anything else.

Last edited by LuckyLloyd; 03-20-2012 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Also yeah, Vick was never Tebow bad to begin with obviously
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:34 PM   #1780
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Tebow might have been the worst passer in the last 20 years or so
Probably. But it isn't like passing can't be learned.

I don't get how everyone in this thread believes that you can't become a better passer through practice.

I love playing the devil's advocate though.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:35 PM   #1781
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

I mean, he was never a great pure passer in college. His throwing motion/accuracy was a HUGE worry when he entered the draft which is why despite being one of the best college players every he was predicted to be a 2nd-3rd round pick (lol mcdaniels) and he hasn't improved much in his first two years as a pro. you can't just make up ceilings bc he's an awesome athlete and you like him.

hey guys Lebron has the peak of a top 3 QB in the NFL and I can just say that bc athletic freaks who are big and strong are usually really good at QB. I'm gonna make sure to add the disclaimer that its super unlikely he reaches this peak so that if/when he doesn't i'm still not wrong
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:36 PM   #1782
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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And even if this happens, still a great move! Move on from Tebow era, eat tons of money when we have a lot of cap room, suck for Barkley.
Yeah it's true lol (I mean 20 million dollars or whatever he'd get is a load of money but pretty insignificant in NFL franchise terms).
Best outcome for non Denver fans would be a Broncos luckbox run to 6ish wins, preferably beating other AFC teams and then a collapse.

Not gonna root for Peyton injury and lol at people who do. In fact if Denver makes the playoffs and we don't I might even root for them. I'm not a huge hater of our division rivals anyways, my hate is reserved for the Steelers and Pats (eventhough I do respect what the Pats are doing a ton more)
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:36 PM   #1783
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Probably has something to do with throwing catchable balls.
While amusing, completely incorrect statement that difference between Vick and Tebow accuracy would account for all of the difference.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:37 PM   #1784
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Also lol @ saying Tebow can't develop a good throw. Didn't you see his huge progress throughout the season? Dude is a freak athleticly and will learn. Tebow ceiling >>> Mallet as a future QB.
Tebow was running a college offense. How many players like Tebow have you seen take their team to the SuperBowl and win. How many pure pocket passers have you seen take their team to a SuperBowl and win. Mallet NFL QB potential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tebow and it ain't even close.
Not to mention the injury factor is like 10x greater with Tebow.

If Tebow wasn't such a nice guy and hardcore christian...the public would have the same view as most NFL scouts...great college system QB, never going to be quality starting NFL QB.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:37 PM   #1785
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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I mean, he was never a great pure passer in college. His throwing motion/accuracy was a HUGE worry when he entered the draft which is why despite being one of the best college players every he was predicted to be a 2nd-3rd round pick (lol mcdaniels) and he hasn't improved much in his first two years as a pro. you can't just make up ceilings bc he's an awesome athlete and you like him.

hey guys Lebron has the peak of a top 3 QB in the NFL and I can just say that bc athletic freaks who are big and strong are usually really good at QB. I'm gonna make sure to add the disclaimer that its super unlikely he reaches this peak so that if/when he doesn't i'm still not wrong
That's the most absurd strawman I've seen in a while, congratulations.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:37 PM   #1786
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Probably. But it isn't like passing can't be learned.

I don't get how everyone in this thread believes that you can't become a better passer through practice.

I love playing the devil's advocate though.
Because huge improvement in that area has been such a rare occurrence throughout NFL history!
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:39 PM   #1787
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Probably. But it isn't like passing can't be learned.

I don't get how everyone in this thread believes that you can't become a better passer through practice.

I love playing the devil's advocate though.
Passing can certainly be learned but the time window or Tebow has passed. I'd say being a good QB is mostly practice (+size doesn't hurt)...10k hourse deliberate practice, Outliers, Talent Code etc. pp.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:40 PM   #1788
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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That's the most absurd strawman I've seen in a while, congratulations.
completely ignore the first part about why your stupid projections are probably baseless and wrong, focus solely on the super obvious strawman.

well played mauer
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:40 PM   #1789
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Probably. But it isn't like passing can't be learned.

I don't get how everyone in this thread believes that you can't become a better passer through practice.
I bet he can learn to pass better! in fact I'm sure of it. really sure, the guy is a tremendous athlete filled with WIM.

but whether he can learn to pass well enough that he's one of the 25 best (or so) in the world? when his competition is other elite athletes who have been practicing really really hard their whole lives? that's pretty doubtful.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:41 PM   #1790
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Tebow was running a college offense. How many players like Tebow have you seen take their team to the SuperBowl and win. How many pure pocket passers have you seen take their team to a SuperBowl and win. Mallet NFL QB potential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tebow and it ain't even close.
Not to mention the injury factor is like 10x greater with Tebow.

If Tebow wasn't such a nice guy and hardcore christian...the public would have the same view as most NFL scouts...great college system QB, never going to be quality starting NFL QB.
Nobody, but Vick/Newton or the like will do it in the next 10 years. McNair almost did.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:42 PM   #1791
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Passing can certainly be learned but the time window or Tebow has passed. I'd say being a good QB is mostly practice (+size doesn't hurt)...10k hourse deliberate practice, Outliers, Talent Code etc. pp.
fair enough. Thanks for posting something that is actually logical, instead of spewing like the rest of this thread

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completely ignore the first part about why your stupid projections are probably baseless and wrong, focus solely on the super obvious strawman.

well played mauer
you should probably learn to post better
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:46 PM   #1792
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Originally Posted by Kneel B4 Zod View Post
I bet he can learn to pass better! in fact I'm sure of it. really sure, the guy is a tremendous athlete filled with WIM.

but whether he can learn to pass well enough that he's one of the 25 best (or so) in the world? when his competition is other elite athletes who have been practicing really really hard their whole lives? that's pretty doubtful.
doubtful, but if it happened, he'd be a top 3 peak QB.

Which is my point.

I completely ****ing understand it's <1% or whatever to happen, I'm just saying that he has that potential. I mean Newton/Vick already has that potential and have achieved it, so I know it's possible to be that type of QB, it's just really hard and may not be possible for poor Tim.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:47 PM   #1793
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

I love how mad Tebow gets people though.

If I was arguing this about Griffin or Vick in '03, there wouldn't be 1/4 of the response to my devil's advocate position.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:49 PM   #1794
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Nobody, but Vick/Newton or the like will do it in the next 10 years. McNair almost did.
Newton is light years ahead of Tebow as a passer.
Vick has a much better arm and was better than Tebow as a passer even back in the early days.

Vick was far more dominant than Tebow as a runner, had a better arm, and was even ahead of Tebow as a pocket passer in his early years.

Tebow could turn out to be a good NFL QB if he finds the perfect offensive system, is willing to work with a coach to improve his accuracy/mechanics/etc, and becomes much more of a pocket passer than a runner. So far he has shown 0 ability to do any of that.
Forcing your head coach to install a college offense is not a good solution.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:52 PM   #1795
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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Newton is light years ahead of Tebow as a passer.
Vick has a much better arm and was better than Tebow as a passer even back in the early days.
Yes to the first.

Not much better to the second.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:56 PM   #1796
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

do you know what devil's advocate is? you're not doing it lol. i'm pro-tebow, he doesn't make me mad at all. idiots who spew nonsense while speaking with authority do though. and i'd imagine arguing vick had top 3 QB potential due to a likely chance of an immense improvement as a passer would have gotten you some flack. griffin, no, because you know he's gonna be a top 2 pick and has succeeded as a passer.

this is why i said the thing about lebron! due to the liberties you've taken with why tebow has the ceiling you claim he has, you can pretty much play "devil's advocate" and assign any ceiling to anyone. you even admit yourself that

Quote:
I completely ****ing understand it's <1% or whatever to happen
so, what are you even talking about? at what point is a ceiling just, holy **** it could happen. i mean i could walk on the ****ing moon, there's a non-zero % chance of that happening, but really who cares?

i mean why if there's a small chance of tebow working really hard and improving as a passer is there not that same chance of stafford doing it? and stafford is already much much better! i'm just rambling at this point but i think you're confusing ceiling with something else
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:57 PM   #1797
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

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I love how mad Tebow gets people though.

If I was arguing this about Griffin or Vick in '03, there wouldn't be 1/4 of the response to my devil's advocate position.
nah it's not just tebow. i got into a similar argument with a bunch of other posters wrt mike vick's "ceiling" right before the 2010 season.

i think your argument is kinda similar to mine and i don't really disagree too much although theoretical peak vick >>>>>>>>>> theoretical peak tebow because vick has a howitzer for an arm and tebow's arm is pretty sad considering how big and strong he is.

the problem is that "learning to be good at passing" appears to be extremely difficult and it's clearly the most important part of the peak tebow formula
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:57 PM   #1798
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

krayz with your logic, vernon davis would be the best qb ever if he reaches his "potential" 4.3 260+ 35+ bench reps
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:58 PM   #1799
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

nice strawman
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:02 PM   #1800
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Re: Peyton Manning landing spot - it's Denver

it's 5 years $96m apparently. that must have been posted right? i just can't see it anywhere
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