Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-05-2011, 10:03 PM   #126
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,106
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
People ITT have said it's illegal (and I believe them), but I don't think this guy really fits any definition of mens rea. He walked into a situation he was completely unprepared for, and went to the people he trusted most. It's really hard for me to hate him, with the information I have.

I see a ton of child abuse cases (probably about 1 a week) and my wife works with kids with the saddest stories ever. This GA is far from the worst you could do in this situation as far as witnesses go.
A status crime does not require mens rea.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:03 PM   #127
Loretta8
knows her Big Ten
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 21,899
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbomom View Post
the ripple effects from this can't be understated. At the very least, Penn State alumni will cut off donations, and that will completely choke the athletic department and the university at large. I think the entire Big 10 will suffer from the results of Penn State not being able to recruit.
in 2003, Baylor basketball nearly got the death penalty, one player murdered another and the coach tried to cover it up and paint the victim as a drug dealer to hide the fact he was giving the kid cash. probably the worst scandal in ncaa basketball history.

in 2010 they were in the Elite 8 and they're now getting top recruits and #12 in the preseason poll. and that's Baylor, not a place with a lot of tradition of athletic success.
Loretta8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:05 PM   #128
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,106
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsRainingMen View Post
i dunno, this seems like a pretty solid case of institutional cornhole
.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:07 PM   #129
agdci981
banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,078
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
He reported it to his immediate supervisor and within a week the witnesses that reported what they saw to JoPa were interviewed in person by the A.D.

Again, what should JoPa do?

I am sure a lot of stuff comes to JoPa's attention and I am sure he just reports it to his superior as he is required to do. JoPa is the not the judge and jury; he is not privy to what happened once he reported it up the chain other than the person he reported it to (and to whom he was required to do so) investigated the matter.

The AD screwed up here as he tried to pawn it off to the charity by reporting it to them. That was a terrible decision and guess what? The AD is going to lose his job and he has been indicted for perjury.

As far as JoPa goes, he did know that Sandusky was barred from the locker room thus there was immediate discipline; he knew his superior investigated the matter; and he knew his superior reported it to the charity.

I will agree that without knowing more, JoPa should have followed up and assuming the AD tells him what was going on, JoPa should have tried to convince him to report it to the police directly rather than relying on the charity.

We went into this whole type of discussion with the Coach Kelly at ND thing. People who hate ND are going to insist the coach is a total POS regardless of the facts. People who hate Penn State will hate on JoPa regardless of the facts. In both cases, perhaps sticking to protocol is a cop out, but at this point, we really don't know. We do know that Penn State people have been arrested for perjury; we do know that JoPa is not one of them.
The only reason JoePa wasn't arrested/threatened with perjury like the others, from what I have read, is that he was never asked to give a statement under oath. Was he? The fact he didn't report this to OUTSIDE authorities, as is apparently REQUIRED BY PENNSYLVANIA LAW, makes him culpable of a crime here. So to answer your question about what should JoePa do...CALL THE ****ING POLICE or at least instruct your grad assistant who apparently, laughably, worships you to report this to the police.
agdci981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:07 PM   #130
ikestoys
banned
 
ikestoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: and don't vote trump/sanders
Posts: 94,444
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
A status crime does not require mens rea.
Not relevant to my point.
ikestoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:09 PM   #131
LuckyLloyd
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
LuckyLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: There's always next year...
Posts: 10,854
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
He reported it to his immediate supervisor and within a week the witnesses that reported what they saw to JoPa were interviewed in person by the A.D.

Again, what should JoPa do?

I am sure a lot of stuff comes to JoPa's attention and I am sure he just reports it to his superior as he is required to do. JoPa is the not the judge and jury; he is not privy to what happened once he reported it up the chain other than the person he reported it to (and to whom he was required to do so) investigated the matter.

The AD screwed up here as he tried to pawn it off to the charity by reporting it to them. That was a terrible decision and guess what? The AD is going to lose his job and he has been indicted for perjury.

As far as JoPa goes, he did know that Sandusky was barred from the locker room thus there was immediate discipline; he knew his superior investigated the matter; and he knew his superior reported it to the charity.

I will agree that without knowing more, JoPa should have followed up and assuming the AD tells him what was going on, JoPa should have tried to convince him to report it to the police directly rather than relying on the charity.

We went into this whole type of discussion with the Coach Kelly at ND thing. People who hate ND are going to insist the coach is a total POS regardless of the facts. People who hate Penn State will hate on JoPa regardless of the facts. In both cases, perhaps sticking to protocol is a cop out, but at this point, we really don't know. We do know that Penn State people have been arrested for perjury; we do know that JoPa is not one of them.
Yeah that was my initial take on it, though it's hard to argue with the shouts in this thread that he should simply have picked up the phone and called the police himself.

Either way, if he just washed his hands of it once he reported it to the AD and never followed up it is pretty indefensible.
LuckyLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:10 PM   #132
Loretta8
knows her Big Ten
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 21,899
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by agdci981 View Post
The only reason JoePa wasn't arrested/threatened with perjury like the others, from what I have read, is that he was never asked to give a statement under oath. Was he? The fact he didn't report this to OUTSIDE authorities, as is apparently required BY PENNSYLVANIA LAW, makes him culpable of a crime here. So to answer your question about what should JoePa do...CALL THE ****ING POLICE or at least instruct your grad assistant who apparently, laughably, worships you to report this to the police.
yeah, not to mention, if you're an elected official in central Pennsylvania, and you want to charge living legend Joe Paterno with being complicit in a child rape case, your evidence has to be air ****ing tight and completely indisputable or your career is over
Loretta8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:11 PM   #133
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,106
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
Not relevant to my point.
How's that? I thought you were wondering about the "intent" element of the crime of failure to report. I guess I read it wrong; what were you referring to?
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:12 PM   #134
HajiShirazu
Pooh-Bah
 
HajiShirazu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: cricket analysis
Posts: 4,688
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Looks like Sandusky is going to get to spend plenty of time with younger men as a result of this one; here's hoping everyone else involved also gets a pounding although it's more likely they'll get a slap on the wrist since that's how these things go.

Penn State is done for the near future - they will be known for years as the "young boy raper" program. I am an alum from grad school and the conversations with random ppl inevitably end up being about Paterno and football when you mention the school. Now they'll probably just end up in awkward silence.

Imagine the recruiting battles. "I'd like to remind you that their assistant was a pedophile and a dozen people knew about it including the coach and the AD yet the police didn't find out for 10 years. We run a clean program over here at Podunk U."
HajiShirazu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:13 PM   #135
agdci981
banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,078
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loretta8 View Post
yeah, not to mention, if you're an elected official in central Pennsylvania, and you want to charge living legend Joe Paterno with being complicit in a child rape case, your evidence has to be air ****ing tight and completely indisputable or your career is over
Yeah, well I mean I realize JoePa isn't going to be indicted for anything regarding this whole matter. I am just saying that if the law that I read from one of the links is, in fact the law in PA then JoePa broke that law. But yes, like you said, nothing is going to happen to him because zomg he is the coach of Penn State FOOTBALL. ****ing backwoods hypocrites.
agdci981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:13 PM   #136
ikestoys
banned
 
ikestoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: and don't vote trump/sanders
Posts: 94,444
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
How's that? I thought you were wondering about the "intent" element of the crime of failure to report. I guess I read it wrong; what were you referring to?
I'm not contending the man didn't violate the law because he didn't know what the law was. I'm arguing that the man isn't a horrible person who deserves to spend years in prison because he had no preparation for this situation and immediately reported it to somebody. He didn't cover anything up. The people above him did. Prosecutorial discretion exists for a reason, and this man doesn't deserve to be charged based on what I know.

I've seen way too many people come in with their infant who has a femur fracture claiming complete ignorance to want to stick this guy in prison. He tried to do right, he just didn't execute well. The others didn't even try.
ikestoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:15 PM   #137
ZBTHorton
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 19,867
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
Again, what should JoPa do?
How about not let the guy bring an 11 year old to practices a few years later?
ZBTHorton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:16 PM   #138
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,106
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by agdci981 View Post
The only reason JoePa wasn't arrested/threatened with perjury like the others, from what I have read, is that he was never asked to give a statement under oath. Was he? The fact he didn't report this to OUTSIDE authorities, as is apparently REQUIRED BY PENNSYLVANIA LAW, makes him culpable of a crime here. So to answer your question about what should JoePa do...CALL THE ****ING POLICE or at least instruct your grad assistant who apparently, laughably, worships you to report this to the police.
I'm not sure. I didn't read anything that stated JoPa witnessed anything. I guess, from your interpretation of the law, after the grad assistant and her father (? or someone who came along to report to JoPa); JoPa; AND the AD all should have gone to the police to report the matter?

I haven't seen the law in question, so I don't really know who would be criminally culpable here. I would think that what the grad assistant and JoPa did (report to the AD) would be sufficient under the law.

Indeed, neither JoPa, nor the assistant seem to be in any criminal trouble. If the law was as cut-and-dried as you say, there is an easy case there. Yet, nobody has been charged under this alleged "failure to report" law.

I suggest we have someone present the law in question and then we can debate whether it was broken by JoPa. Until then, I think calling for JoPa's arrest, etc. is too much.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:18 PM   #139
agdci981
banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,078
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
I'm not contending the man didn't violate the law because he didn't know what the law was. I'm arguing that the man isn't a horrible person who deserves to spend years in prison because he had no preparation for this situation and immediately reported it to somebody. He didn't cover anything up. The people above him did. Prosecutorial discretion exists for a reason, and this man doesn't deserved to be charged based on what I know.

I've seen way too many people come in with their infant who has a femur fracture claiming complete ignorance to want to stick this guy in prison. He tried to do right, he just didn't execute well. The others didn't even try.
Yes, but at the end of the day it is in the hands of the fact finder and what a "reasonable person" would do. I think that when a "reasonable person" walks into a football locker room and sees a 60 year old man pinning a 10 year old boy up against a wall and engaging in anal sex with that boy they report it to the police, not Joe Paterno. I am not saying the grad assistant is a "horrible person" but in this case he broke the law and should be punished for doing so.

And I know you or others will come back with the whole "well he reported to a higher authority in JoePa." I mean, come on. A FOOTBALL COACH isn't higher authority imo when it comes to a situation like this. There isn't a defense to stupidity.
agdci981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:18 PM   #140
ZBTHorton
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 19,867
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

All of this JoePA should he have reported it blah blah stuff is all bull**** anyway.

He saw a grown man, who he had major evidence of sexually assaulting a 10 year old boy, bring an 11 year old boy to practice a few years later and didn't ****ing kill the guy. He deserves to be fired. That's ****ing insane.
ZBTHorton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:20 PM   #141
ThaSaltCracka
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ThaSaltCracka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seatown
Posts: 66,879
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steroid Boy View Post
@SPORTSbyBROOKS SPORTSbyBROOKS
After all of that, in 2007, Paterno allowed Sandusky to bring 11 yr old boy, who he was raping at the time, to multiple practices.
wow.....
ThaSaltCracka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:20 PM   #142
ikestoys
banned
 
ikestoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: and don't vote trump/sanders
Posts: 94,444
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by agdci981 View Post
Yes, but at the end of the day it is in the hands of the fact finder and what a "reasonable person" would do. I think that when a "reasonable person" walks into a football locker room and sees a 60 year old man pinning a 10 year old boy up against a wall and engaging in anal sex with that boy they report it to the police, not Joe Paterno.
Going to the person and organization you trust most is not unreasonable. Covering up the act is unreasonable.
ikestoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:20 PM   #143
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,106
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
I'm not contending the man didn't violate the law because he didn't know what the law was. I'm arguing that the man isn't a horrible person who deserves to spend years in prison because he had no preparation for this situation and immediately reported it to somebody. He didn't cover anything up. The people above him did. Prosecutorial discretion exists for a reason, and this man doesn't deserve to be charged based on what I know.

I've seen way too many people come in with their infant who has a femur fracture claiming complete ignorance to want to stick this guy in prison. He tried to do right, he just didn't execute well. The others didn't even try.
I agree here. So, essentially, you are saying whatever the law may be, it would be a bit harsh without exploring the person's mindset behind his failure to act properly.

Yet, with status cases (like filing a false tax return, speeding, trespassing, etc.) mens rea is not an element.

To further your point, the law seeks to avoid putting otherwise innocent people in a moral quandry. This is the entire purpose of the "bystander laws." You have a right to ignore something, but once you get involved you have a duty to perform as a reasonable person would.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:21 PM   #144
agdci981
banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,078
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys View Post
Going to the person and organization you trust most is not unreasonable. Covering up the act is unreasonable.
I don't think a reasonable person considers a college football program a more trusting organization than the police or FBI...
agdci981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:22 PM   #145
Needle77
No Longer Protecting
 
Needle77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Kutztown is in the Hall of Fame
Posts: 42,289
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBTHorton View Post
All of this JoePA should he have reported it blah blah stuff is all bull**** anyway.

He saw a grown man, who he had major evidence of sexually assaulting a 10 year old boy, bring an 11 year old boy to practice a few years later and didn't ****ing kill the guy. He deserves to be fired. That's ****ing insane.
God...I don't even know why I am still opening this thread. This **** is so true...yet I get more sick thinking about it.
Needle77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:23 PM   #146
agdci981
banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,078
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
I'm not sure. I didn't read anything that stated JoPa witnessed anything. I guess, from your interpretation of the law, after the grad assistant and her father (? or someone who came along to report to JoPa); JoPa; AND the AD all should have gone to the police to report the matter?

I haven't seen the law in question, so I don't really know who would be criminally culpable here. I would think that what the grad assistant and JoPa did (report to the AD) would be sufficient under the law.

Indeed, neither JoPa, nor the assistant seem to be in any criminal trouble. If the law was as cut-and-dried as you say, there is an easy case there. Yet, nobody has been charged under this alleged "failure to report" law.

I suggest we have someone present the law in question and then we can debate whether it was broken by JoPa. Until then, I think calling for JoPa's arrest, etc. is too much.
I haven't read the actual law being cited by some articles here but what I get from it is that anyone with an eyewitness account of a sexual assault must report it to authorities and authorities is not defined the athletic director of sports at a university or the head football coach. This is only based on how it is being described in these articles though so you can go through the PA Code at your leisure if you wish....
agdci981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:23 PM   #147
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,106
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBTHorton View Post
How about not let the guy bring an 11 year old to practices a few years later?
I didn't see where this happened. Could you provide a quote or link? Indeed, if that happened, JoPa should certainly be fired.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:24 PM   #148
ikestoys
banned
 
ikestoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: and don't vote trump/sanders
Posts: 94,444
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by agdci981 View Post
I don't think a reasonable person considers a college football program a more trusting organization than the police or FBI...
You think it's irrational to place more trust in an organization that you spend nearly every day instead of an organization where you probably know nobody? I get that going to the police is the right decision, but that doesn't make the GA the supreme *******. He's clearly trying to do right and is in completely over his head.

You'd be surprised how many people wouldn't even do the things he did.
ikestoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:25 PM   #149
ZBTHorton
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 19,867
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
I didn't see where this happened. Could you provide a quote or link? Indeed, if that happened, JoPa should certainly be fired.
@SPORTSbyBROOKS SPORTSbyBROOKS
After all of that, in 2007, Paterno allowed Sandusky to bring 11 yr old boy, who he was raping at the time, to multiple practices.
ZBTHorton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 10:26 PM   #150
LuckyLloyd
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
LuckyLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: There's always next year...
Posts: 10,854
Re: So Bad It's Not LOL: Penn State Covers Up For a Pedophile

Also, reading the Grand Jury report is seems that:

The graduate assistant
Father of the graduate assistant
Paterno
Tim Curley A.D.
Dr. Jack Raykovitz of The Second Mile
Gary Schultz
Graham Spanier University President

All were told about the matter and did not act.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agdci981 View Post
Yeah, well I mean I realize JoePa isn't going to be indicted for anything regarding this whole matter. I am just saying that if the law that I read from one of the links is, in fact the law in PA then JoePa broke that law. But yes, like you said, nothing is going to happen to him because zomg he is the coach of Penn State FOOTBALL. ****ing backwoods hypocrites.

Another relevant excerpt from the Grand Jury Report:

Quote:
The Grand Jury concludes that the sexual assault of a minor male in 2002 should have been reported to the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare and/or a law enforcement agency such as the University Police or the Pennsylvania State Police. The University, by its senior staff, Gary Schultz, Senior Vice President for Finance and Business and Tim Curley, Athletic Director, was notified by two different Penn State employees of the alleged sexual exploitation of that youth. Pennsylvania's mandatory reporting statue for suspected child abuse is located at 23 Pa.C.S. 6311 (Child Protective Services Law) and provides that when a staff member reports abuse, pursuant to statue, the person in charge of the school or institution has the responsibility and legal obligation to report or cause such a report to be made by telephone and in writing within 48 hours to the Department of Public Welfare of the Commenwealth of Pennsylvania. An oral report should have been made to Centre County Children and Youth Services but none was made. Nor was there any attempt to investigate, to identify Victim 2 or to protect that child or any others from similar conduct, except as related to preventing its occurrence on University property. The failure to report is a violation of the law which was graded a summary offense in 2002, pursuant to 23. Pa.C.S. 6319.
Leaving aside how damning this is overall, the bolded does seem to indicate that Paterno was not legally obliged to make a report to the police himself, that responsibility fell upon his superiors.
LuckyLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online