Olympics: Gender fluidity and definition for competition (extracted from Events thread) - Sporting Events and Fantasy Sports

It is predicted that she will smash the WR. Could have won the 400m also if she entered. There has been a lot of controversy and debate already.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...cking-timebomb

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08-17-2016 , 11:10 AM

GusJohnsonGOAT

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty

There's a trans woman who won an 800m heat. Gonna be a ****storm.

I'm guessing they measure their t levels to make sure they are the same as what other women have? Seems fine that way, but also seems like an advantage could be gained if someone waited to change very late by building muscle mass.

Maybe the IOC has done an extensive study on this, but they are so incompetent, that it wouldn't surprise me that not enough research has been done.

I wouldn't let someone trans compete or someone like Blade Runner compete. Sorry it sucks to those people but sets a dangerous precedent.

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08-17-2016 , 11:14 AM

Bjørn

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Originally Posted by GusJohnsonGOAT

I'm guessing they measure their t levels to make sure they are the same as what other women have? Seems fine that way, but also seems like an advantage could be gained if someone waited to change very late by building muscle mass.

Maybe the IOC has done an extensive study on this, but they are so incompetent, that it wouldn't surprise me that not enough research has been done.

I wouldn't let someone trans compete or someone like Blade Runner compete. Sorry it sucks to those people but sets a dangerous precedent.

CAS has ruled to suspend this practice.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...erone-olympics

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08-17-2016 , 11:17 AM

ClarkNasty

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Not technically trans. Hermaphrodite.

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08-17-2016 , 11:24 AM

GusJohnsonGOAT

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Well, that's different, and I have heard about her before. Think that's a much harder decision.

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08-17-2016 , 11:30 AM

pwnsall

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she's not trans or a hermaphrodite as far as i can tell

just a women who produces abnormally large amounts of testosterone

not sure if she can reproduce

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08-17-2016 , 11:31 AM

MEb

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Originally Posted by pwnsall

she's not trans or a hermaphrodite as far as i can tell

just a women who produces abnormally large amounts of testosterone

not sure if she can reproduce

So I deleted a post where I said this because that was everything I had always read, but then I read a different story that claimed that she has no ovaries and has internal testes. Honest answer is, I don't think any of us know for sure what the deal is and probably shouldn't comment as though we do, myself included.

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08-17-2016 , 11:32 AM

pwnsall

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according to wiki the case that let her race was decided on "The ruling found that there was insufficient evidence that testosterone increased female athletic performance"

seems a bit lol

the reasoning, have no real opinion on the decision

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08-17-2016 , 12:06 PM

mutigers

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty

There's a trans woman who won an 800m heat. Gonna be a ****storm.

some guardian article quoted some person who was claiming she thought up to 5 athletes in the 800m women's final would be intersex(i think that is the right word can't remember i read it awhile ago)

complicated issue. frankly i don't really care that much about any of that kind of stuff

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08-17-2016 , 12:25 PM

#10

ClarkNasty

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Yeah thought it was trans at first. Was corrected in private conversation.

Tho the ioc does have a policy allowing certain trans athletes to compete in women's events.

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08-17-2016 , 12:28 PM

#11

sportsjefe

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Originally Posted by mutigers

If people are going to bring excess testosterone into the female competitions and they're going to allow it, we'll probably just need to discontinue women-only sports. I mean, if you really want to be logically consistent.

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08-17-2016 , 12:31 PM

#12

sportsjefe

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Discontinuing is a step too far, but if people are going to talk about gender fluidity, we're going to have to draw a line somewhere between men and women.

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08-17-2016 , 01:03 PM

#13

Lee C

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The Semenya case is definitely an interesting one and it had a huge debate about 7 years ago surrounding it. Will be interesting if she ends up winning if it will spark a debate or not.

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08-17-2016 , 01:05 PM

#14

ClarkNasty

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I mean, how hard can it be to prove the necessity of testosterone thresholds. Don't the men even have that?

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08-17-2016 , 01:17 PM

#15

royalblue

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty

I mean, how hard can it be to prove the necessity of testosterone thresholds. Don't the men even have that?

Yeah in 2006 they busted Floyd Landis mainly because of his insane testosterone level IIRC

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08-17-2016 , 01:24 PM

#16

ClarkNasty

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Just read an article making the argument that "naturally occurring high testosterone is no different than having a huge heart or huge lungs or high red blood count". I mean....maybe but one of those is typically tied to possession of some form of working male sex organs.

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08-17-2016 , 01:30 PM

#17

Fallen Hero

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty

I mean, how hard can it be to prove the necessity of testosterone thresholds. Don't the men even have that?

538 had an article on this issue before the games, it didn't look like the ioc was nearly as incompetent or oblivious as a few people are insinuating

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08-17-2016 , 01:59 PM

#18

pwnsall

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i lean towards letting her compete

she's just the next stage of evolution, deal with it

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08-17-2016 , 03:01 PM

#19

Lee C

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Classification games seem stupid.

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08-17-2016 , 03:46 PM

#20

CalledDownLight

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty

Why does it matter?

We don't separate athletes by race even though white people tend to win a crazy percentage of swimming medals, people of African descent win a crazy percentage of running medals, and surely there are other sports that are dominated by one race or another historically. If something about your genetic disposition and physical makeup gives you an advantage then why shouldn't you be able to take advantage of that?

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08-17-2016 , 04:05 PM

#21

ClarkNasty

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Originally Posted by CalledDownLight

The question is where should the line be drawn.

As of now, there are lots of grey cases. But something that seems more clear is that owning testes (recessed or otherwise) that produce testosterone falls on one side of the line. As does being born what most would consider a "normal" boy. Having the benefit of an extra organ, or innate bone structure, fall outside the range of "well obviously many top athletes are freaks with super rare advantages"

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08-17-2016 , 04:26 PM

#22

Fallen Hero

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty

what line is that?

relevant: 538 article on gender identification in the olympic games

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The athlete must declare a female identity, and this identity cannot change for at least four years. The athlete must also document that her total serum testosterone levels have remained below a certain limit for a minimum of 12 months before competing, and these levels must remain under the threshold as long as she’s competing.

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After some of her teammates questioned her gender, Chand was tested, found to have naturally elevated levels of testosterone and ruled ineligible to compete. She fought the ruling, and the Court of Arbitration of Sport issued a decision in her favor, saying that the IAAF had not shown that the degree of Chand’s advantage was more significant than the advantages athletes might derive from other natural physical characteristics.

Last edited by Fallen Hero; 08-17-2016 at 04:33 PM.

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08-17-2016 , 04:37 PM

#23

CalledDownLight

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty

I thought you were all about equal rights?

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08-17-2016 , 04:45 PM

#24

Rei Ayanami

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The Olympics thread is a big favorite to set the record for extractions.

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08-17-2016 , 04:52 PM

#25

DTD

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Just skimmed a long article that said that she's held back in the past (to reduce the fall-out) but may go flat out and could get the WR. It's a WR that has been miles out of site for years and is an obvious doping record. If she get the WR she wins but 10 yards+ and we have even more of a storm. Suddenly I look forward to watching the event!

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