By easily I meant that you could definitely make the argument, not that you could make the argument that either were "easily" better than Yzerman.

His 89' season was fantastic, but I should have reworded my post. Yzerman based on that one season probably had the best year of all three, but his peak didn't last all that long before he became a mere PPG player. Those 100+ point seasons also look better than they actually were. 100 point players could be found all over the league at the time.

It's a little bit tougher to evaluate Yzerman later in his career because when his production dropped so did scoring league wide, plus he was getting older. He wasn't that old, though, and Forsberg at around the same age in the same era had some incredible years. Yzerman never really had any great years in the dead puck era while Lindros and Forsberg did, even during shortened seasons.

I don't think the left wing lock hurt him a ton, it's not as if the system preaches one specific player being the third forward high. It was Yzerman more often than not, of course, but it's not as stifling of a system to one's offensive output as some might think, especially considering Detroit was the ultimate puck possession team. Think of Datsyuk in Detroit now, he plays a very similar role defensively.

i never played on a left wing lock team, but from what i understand, the lock does require the left-wing to stay back. of course, the red wings may not do exactly a pure LWL. in doing so, the two D and LW line up three across, so they are never 3 on 2 or 2 on 1. it therefore lets the defencemen get more aggressive when the puck is in the offensive zone, because they don't have to rush back and cover the entire ice - they split the ice evenly with the defensive forward. the C and RW can forecheck aggressively as well because there will always be 3 "D" back.

If it was a minor penalty infraction, that would've been wiped out with the penalty shot. But a major cannot be wiped out. It's still a penalty shot, but the major has to be called afterwards. Kinda like, let's say, the ref has his arm up for a major boarding penalty, and the team who's gonna get the powerplay ends up scoring. Because of the severity of the penalty, it cannot be wiped out, and the major is still called after the fact...a goal wouldn't have ended the 5 minute powerplay anyways.

As for the injury, it's a judgement call on the ref's part. I'm gonna guess McDonald was leaking and required attention, so in that respect, if it's gonna delay the game unnecessarily, the ref would be well within his rights to assign another player to the penalty shot.

In all fairness, Falloon had an absolutely outstanding junior career with Spokane. I'm sure he looked like as close to a lock as you can get. Not to mention, Forsberg's value was affected by a general sense of unknown that still surrounded European U-20 hockey going back 20-25 years ago.

I also think most of Falloon's problems were off-ice; it's been widely rumoured he had a very hard battle with alcoholism during his playing career.

yeah that guy really Fogarty'd himself.

I want to know where you're coming from so I want you to define to me what you are talking about when you say "peak" ability? I assume you are only talking offensively. Because I would argue that Yzerman was a more valuable player and better between 94-2002 than at any other point in his career.

I'm sure a lot of Wings fans would make that argument, considering the Wings won 3 Cups in that span. I don't buy it though, the offensive gap is too siginificant for there to be a legitimate argument that he was a better player from 94'-02' than say 88'-93'. His average plus minus per season for both spans of his career are practically identical. I'm not going to pretend I was old enough to watch Yzerman for most of his career, but unless you're going to make an argument based on WIM or intangibles I don't see how Yzerman was better after 94' than he was before.

meh. yzerman was a one man band in the 80s. he had three years where he averaged around 1.75 points/game cumulatively. even for that era, that's real good. he slowed down in his 30s, as do most scoring players.

meh, some players age differently, and are used in different roles at different ages. yzerman began to take a back seat to fedorov at that point. my issue with forsberg is that only in philadelphia was he likely to face the top checkers. that 03-04 avs team, despite their performance on the ice, was ridiculously loaded.

Silly question, but arguably the most talented team ever to not win the Cup? I know Kariya didn't stay healthy and Roy wasn't in between the pipes, but what a sick, sick team.

for the same reason I argue that Crosby is better than Ovechkin and that Jonathan Toews is better than Patrick Kane.* Because before then, he was basically Patrick Kane. Threw up big points, didn't really pay attention on defence, floated around until he got the puck or sensed a scoring play happen. Then he became Jonathan Toews. Hard worker, guys watch him and say "I want to play like that" and they work harder because of it. Guys like post-1990 Yzerman are inspiring. Their completeness makes other players - skilled, unskilled, grinders, muckers play better - as the cliche goes. Guys like Kane make other players say "I wish I had those skills so I wouldn't have to play defence to get a paycheque."

*I am not suggesting that Ovechkin floats around like Patrick Kane. I am referring to the completeness of player, not his effort-level.

EDIT: yes some of that may be because they knew they weren't going to get fedorov to be more complete. that said, federov did become complete and became imo the best russian player ever and a truly excellent excellent player in his own right. If he had actually played hockey every night, he'd have been one of the best.

always funny how no one - and i mean no one - says the same about scott niedermayer - there they just hand-wave about defensive systems. since, you know, a good canadian boy has to be playing with his heart on his sleeve every night and pumping up his teammates and doing all the little things right. that's why fedorov might get shunned from the HOF while niedermayer is a lock.

the rest of the debate, i'm not going to be sucked into. crosby ovechkin is a totally dead issue in this thread, kane vs. toews, it's far too early to say anything conclusive.

what are you blathering about? the knock on neidermayer has always been that he spent a long time as a offensive-only player who couldnt rub out a forward if he was using an eraser, in addition to never having been a give-110%-82-times-a-year guy. he, like fedorov and yzerman, became a more complete later on in his career too.

as bad as some canadian homerism is (not that americans are ever homers), your oversensitivity to it is equally bad.

fedorov may make the HHOF, but what puts neidermayer over the top is his contributions to Canadian int'l hockey as well. Fedorov has only one int'l gold, in the WHC a few years ago or something like that. Not that I even think Niedermayer is even a lock any more than Fedorov is. That said, I can't deny that the HHOF is Canadian-biased, as much as the IIHF HOF is Euro-biased.

niedermayer is an 150% lock for the HOF, first ballot. he'll probably even get in before someone like zubov which is lol bad.

With people giving trip advice ITT, a completely OT question. After years of work, I finally got some vacation time. Girlfriend suggested we spend it in Nova Scotia, but I know nothing of the area. Is there anything worth doing/seeing in NS or maybe NB?

Meh, east coast Canada isn't really the best place for someone young. Beautiful scenery, but not much else.

Huh?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=5066473

Slovenian team beats up their coach after a victory.

PEI is a nice place, for a nice relaxing trip, but nowhere on the east coast (maybe Halifax?) are you going to find a great vacation/party atmosphere.

LOL

KOPITARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHH

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Thanks.

Also, we're not that young, don't do a lot of partying, and neither of us like big cities too much FWIW.

wrt partying, facepalm.jpg

George St. in St John's, NFLD is the absolute stone cold nuts for party atmosphere. Downtown Halifax is a close second, but probably drops off a bit after school is done - Dal and SMU are literally within blocks of each other in Hali.

Of course, I don't know how old NIX is and what he likes, or how he wants to spend time with the GF. If he wants relaxaments, PEI is gorgeous and NS/NB has a ton of beauty as well. Newfoundland is just an experience all unto its own; whale watching just outside of Cape Spear will go down as one of the coolest things I've ever done, til the day I die.

Also, the golfing is fantastic out there...PEI has some absolute hidden gems. Always at least 5-6 courses in the east that make ScoreGolf's annual Canadian top 50.

Whatever you decide, it'll be super laid back if it's the east coast and I think you'll really enjoy yourself tbh.

I just reread that article about the American coach getting beat up...if he told a 19-year old kid to drive home drunk, that's kinda bad. Obv we don't know the context, but yea, I could see why some guys would get angry.

and people wonder why i have a thing with canadians.

btw, triumph, i am hurt that you ignored my shooting and save percentages in the playoffs point.

News flash: American media parody of Canadian fans is WAY WORSE than actual Canadian fans

Yay for stupid stereotypes

But, carry on, I've said all this before, I'm sure you won't pay any more attention this time than those

i don't remember what it was. i remember someone bringing up something about eras or something like that, and i kind of ignored it.

The fact that six players were present on the side of the road with the coach makes me wonder if everyone piled into a car with the 19 year old driving or if they heard he crashed and everyone went to the scene or something similar. Just seems weird that everyone happened to be on the side of the road together where these wooden street signs are located.

Thank you thank you thank you.

Luckily, the hockey regs itt typically get this. It was the non-hockey American bandwagon morans during the Olympics that ruined it for everyone.

Come to think of it, hockey fans are my favourite Americans. Except for John Kerry. **** that guy and **** Yale. So **** Chris Higgins too.

T, you think Calgary resigns Higgins? If they do, hopefully for something like $1.5 mil/year? I can't possibly see him not taking a paycut after his last two horrendous seasons, but I still think he's got game. (lol @ me)