Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-07-2017, 01:00 PM   #2576
Kneel B4 Zod
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Kneel B4 Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 27,852
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffRas22 View Post
What proof do we have that Kamara can't be an every down back?
you're asking for evidence for why he can't do something he's not currently doing. the evidence is...he's not doing it. once he starts doing it, I'll change my mind!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffRas22 View Post
Were it not for the existence of Mark Ingram he would be playing every down.
bc this is the confusing part. Kamara is mega elite and good enough to be the every down back, but Mark Ingram is also too good for him to get ahead of? it's not like he's sitting behind 2001 Marshall Faulk here.
Kneel B4 Zod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 02:34 PM   #2577
nath
the second coming of the second coming
 
nath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Rust and Marty, a hundred years
Posts: 65,365
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
Having to keep a back up or replacement level player on your roster is a far cry from needing someone who is capable of playing half your snaps (essentially a second starter).

Now in the Saints case when you pick up one of those players relatively late in the draft it might not matter for a year or two as the young player is cheap, but once he's in a position to get paid it won't make sense to roster two capable RBs.

I agree with Wheatrich, if the dude can't play full time he's not worth a top 10 (or prob. even first round) pick.
And like wheatrich, you're conflating "doesn't" with "can't".

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
RBs never just fall off a cliff or get injured in a manner from which they can never fully recover? There have been plenty of one year wonders at the position. It's also one of the easiest positions to replace and unless you are GUARANTEED multiple years of Kamara's current production (which you never are) I don't see how one justifies using an early pick, barring unusual circumstances.
That could happen to literally any position. Running backs aren't unique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneel B4 Zod View Post
bc this is the confusing part. Kamara is mega elite and good enough to be the every down back, but Mark Ingram is also too good for him to get ahead of? it's not like he's sitting behind 2001 Marshall Faulk here.
"Ahead of"? Again, you obviously don't know how the Saints' offense works. And no running back is going to get 35 touches a game, which is what Ingram and Kamara have been combining for since AP was traded. If "35 touches a game" is the metric which you demand a RB meet or he's fungible, well, lol and good luck finding one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashley12 View Post
Out of curiosity

Has anyone got a stat for which teams have the highest % of RB touches from their top two RBs?

I would have to guess that Ingram and Kamara would have to be right up there as a pairing. Have they even had someone on the field that isn't a blocker/FB aside from Lasco since ADP was traded?

RE, that specific example, its usually pretty dumb since I don't think any RB outside of McCoy/Zeke/Bell would be playing more than 85% of snaps anyway. And most of those teams still have a second RB that doesn't/rarely plays special teams as well.
Trey Edmunds took some carries in garbage time of the Buffalo game but I think it's 100% been Ingram/Kamara in the backfield otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneel B4 Zod View Post
James White was a 4th round draft pick
Rex Burkhead signed a $3m one year contract
and any team in the NFL could have had Dion Lewis for the minimum

those are 3 reasons why assigning top value to Kamara is not right. you can say Kamara is a cut above all those guys, but those 3 were available for essentially nothing. Kamara's gotta be in a different universe for him to be worth a high first round pick - and until he can prove he can be a true every down guy, he isn't.

(you can say - he could be! - but that and $3 will get you a cup of coffee)
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
I love how quickly the same forum which decries concepts like "casual fans" immediately jumps on the bandwagon of every flash in the pan that comes along.
And I love how people make generic arguments instead of actually looking at the specific player they're supposedly evaluating. "Well, uh, I believe X Y and Z about running backs so there's no such thing as a good one."

You know what this entire discussion reminds me of? It reminds me of posting poker hands on 2p2 in the olden days, and getting a bunch of responses that were essentially "in generic situation X I would do Y," ignoring the actual specific situation and player we were dealing with.

Again, I feel like most of the Kamara critics haven't even watched him or done their in-depth research, they just looked at one or two numbers or are so anti-RB they've already jumped to conclusions.


Onto other topics:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
Hue can't coach a successful team because the GM has given him absolute trash to work with?
The Browns have acquired a lot of young talent, particularly on defense. Hue has handled DeShone Kizer badly and made a number of other baffling in-game decisions (remember that read option on third-and-11 last week? And then punting from inside the opponents' 40?). He also hired human trash can Gregg Williams as DC, who now that he's not allowed to kill offensive players looks like garbage because his entire strategy is "blitz and play safeties 40 yards off the ball."

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
Steelers didn't get Munchak to coach the o-line until Bell's second season, IIRC. He's made a world of difference to that offense.
Bell also lost a lot of weight from season one to two, and his increased quickness has made a substantial difference in his game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rafiki View Post
As an NFL GM, what's the highest you'd draft Courtland Sutton right now? Think the Colts will reach that high for him?

Not totally sure how to imbed tweets: https://twitter.com/CBSSportsNet/sta...226496/video/1

Anyway I figure he's gotta go closer to 20's, but wonder if Colts go for it.
I dunno where he'll go as I have no idea how teams rate this year's receivers. I expect Sutton, James Washington, Calvin Ridley, and Christian Kirk to be first-rounders, at least, but that's as far as I've gotten.
nath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:12 PM   #2578
BillNye
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BillNye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KILL CHILDRESS
Posts: 9,390
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneel B4 Zod View Post
James White was a 4th round draft pick
Rex Burkhead signed a $3m one year contract
and any team in the NFL could have had Dion Lewis for the minimum

those are 3 reasons why assigning top value to Kamara is not right. you can say Kamara is a cut above all those guys, but those 3 were available for essentially nothing. Kamara's gotta be in a different universe for him to be worth a high first round pick - and until he can prove he can be a true every down guy, he isn't.

(you can say - he could be! - but that and $3 will get you a cup of coffee)
Rex Burkhead has got 4.4 ypc. Kamara has 7.0 ypc. For RBs it doesn't get much more different universe then that.

That being said 9/10 in the top 10 you should either draft a QB or trade down. And while Kamara is clearly having an amazing, amazing season and is an extremely talented back I think it's extremely likely that this will go down as the best season of his career. Wonder what a good line on his YPC next season would be. I'd probably take the under on 5.0 altho Jamaal Charles pretty much was 5.0+ every year. CJ2K broke 5.0 1x and ADP broke it 2x.

Last edited by BillNye; 12-07-2017 at 03:19 PM.
BillNye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:14 PM   #2579
Kneel B4 Zod
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Kneel B4 Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 27,852
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillNye View Post
Rex Burkhead has got 4.4 ypc. Kamara has 7.0 ypc. Doesn't get more different universe than that.

That being said 9/10 in the top 10 you should either draft a QB or trade down.
do you know when it's impossible to get a 7.0 YPC? when you're an every down running back
Kneel B4 Zod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:18 PM   #2580
Kneel B4 Zod
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Kneel B4 Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 27,852
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by nath View Post

"Ahead of"? Again, you obviously don't know how the Saints' offense works. And no running back is going to get 35 touches a game, which is what Ingram and Kamara have been combining for since AP was traded. If "35 touches a game" is the metric which you demand a RB meet or he's fungible, well, lol and good luck finding one.
I just know that Ingram has 2x as many carries (180 carries vs 86). If in the Saints offense that means that Kamara isn't behind him....ok.

(and yeah, Kamara has 18 more receptions, but again that is evidence that he's much more of a 3rd down / situational player than an every down back)

COULD he be a true every down back? Sure, but I have no idea. But until that happens I'm not gonna assume it could happen
Kneel B4 Zod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:20 PM   #2581
NLSoldier
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NLSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hello Ted
Posts: 23,711
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Rex burkhead: every down running back.
NLSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:21 PM   #2582
Kneel B4 Zod
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Kneel B4 Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 27,852
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLSoldier View Post
Rex burkhead: every down running back.
if you think Kamara is gonna maintain 7 YPC as his carries increase, GLWT
Kneel B4 Zod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:26 PM   #2583
BillNye
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BillNye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KILL CHILDRESS
Posts: 9,390
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

My dog Dalvin Cook has more carries in 3.5 games than Burkhead has this year and Dalvin's got 110 more yards too. WTF are you talking about? Good ninja edit cuz yikes.
BillNye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:28 PM   #2584
NLSoldier
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NLSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hello Ted
Posts: 23,711
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Lol wish I had quoted that
NLSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:36 PM   #2585
NLSoldier
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NLSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hello Ted
Posts: 23,711
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

The problem is really this entire redraft concept 12 weeks in. Obviously rbs show their value faster than just about any other position so a standout rb is going to look like an obvious high pick for a redraft due to so many guys who have not had an opportunity to to dissociate themselves from their draft slot in the upward direction.

But the kamara haters aren't really focusing on the fact that the rookie pay scale makes it almost impossible for any rb to warrant a super high pick and are instead just talking nonsense about him not being able to play enough snaps.
NLSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:39 PM   #2586
Kneel B4 Zod
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Kneel B4 Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 27,852
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

yeah it was misstated but the point is Burkhead is getting different carries. He is the Pats goaline option. He gets plenty of between the tackles type runs on 1st and 2nd down. I mean the 3 guys I listed are the 3 Pats RB's.

James White is a classic 3rd down receiving / pass blocking back
Dion Lewis is 5' 8, 190lb, and plays bigger than that, but still is not gonna be confused with Christian Okoye

and then there is Burkhead. He is the closest thing to a traditional RB that the Pats have so he is getting plenty of traditional RB looks. Well, Gilleslie is really the closest but he's been a healthy scratch
Kneel B4 Zod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:42 PM   #2587
nath
the second coming of the second coming
 
nath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Rust and Marty, a hundred years
Posts: 65,365
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Hey, the Patriots drafted Tom Brady in the sixth round, so why does anyone take QBs early anyway? Waste of money imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillNye View Post
My dog Dalvin Cook has more carries in 3.5 games than Burkhead has this year and Dalvin's got 110 more yards too. WTF are you talking about? Good ninja edit cuz yikes.
LOL. Rex Burkhead is basically Alvin Kamara now. This is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneel B4 Zod View Post
I just know that Ingram has 2x as many carries (180 carries vs 86). If in the Saints offense that means that Kamara isn't behind him....ok.
Since Adrian Peterson was traded, Ingram has 165 touches to Kamara's 111. Much closer to 60/40 than a clear lead, and Ingram has been the guy they go to for mop-up work when the game is out of hand (which, if you haven't noticed, has been quite often for a 9-3 team).

Kamara might not maintain 7 YPC over a larger load, but watching him actually play, and looking at advanced stats, he's consistently successful, he consistently gains more yards after contact than almost anybody, he's leading the league in rushing DVOA and DYAR by a LOT (Ingram is second in DYAR, for the record), as well as receiving DYAR for backs. I don't think his numbers will suddenly plummet to ordinary if he goes from 14 touches a game to 20, because there's no reason to think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneel B4 Zod View Post
(and yeah, Kamara has 18 more receptions, but again that is evidence that he's much more of a 3rd down / situational player than an every down back)
It's evidence that, exactly like I said, you don't watch the games or study the player, you just looked at one or two counting stats and combined them with your anti-RB bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLSoldier View Post
The problem is really this entire redraft concept 12 weeks in. Obviously rbs show their value faster than just about any other position so a standout rb is going to look like an obvious high pick for a redraft due to so many guys who have not had an opportunity to to dissociate themselves from their draft slot in the upward direction.

But the kamara haters aren't really focusing on the fact that the rookie pay scale makes it almost impossible for any rb to warrant a super high pick and are instead just talking nonsense about him not being able to play enough snaps.
As I said earlier ITT, I think the fact that RBs show their value so fast is a huge argument in favor of drafting them early; you're far more likely to get your money's worth over the life of a rookie contract.
nath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:53 PM   #2588
DisGunBGud
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DisGunBGud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: GENIE LAND
Posts: 19,502
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Falcons/Saints game opened as a Pick Em. Saints peaked at -1.5 but game settled back to Pick Em early this morning. All the late money must be going on Falcons because they are now 2.5 pt favorites. Interesting.
DisGunBGud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 04:02 PM   #2589
LuckyLloyd
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
LuckyLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: There's always next year...
Posts: 10,862
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Someone better informed than me: does this essentially end the Brown's approach to player acquisition and a focus on the long term? Or are there other influential people in the organisation to continue it on?
LuckyLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 04:04 PM   #2590
nath
the second coming of the second coming
 
nath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Rust and Marty, a hundred years
Posts: 65,365
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Of course Jimmy Haslam would promise Sashi and DiPodesta a chance to really rebuild properly then fire them after less than two seasons. He continues to be an awful owner. The Browns' problems start with him.

Ryan Shazier is not recovering as well as expected; the injury was much more severe than originally thought. He may never play football again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisGunBGud View Post
Falcons/Saints game opened as a Pick Em. Saints peaked at -1.5 but game settled back to Pick Em early this morning. All the late money must be going on Falcons because they are now 2.5 pt favorites. Interesting.
Yeah, I dunno what's going on there. Really hoping it's not some insider info that Lattimore is out. That said, Atlanta is a good team.
nath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 04:13 PM   #2591
StoppedRainingMen
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
StoppedRainingMen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: lol
Posts: 45,173
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
Hue can't coach a successful team because the GM has given him absolute trash to work with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillNye View Post
Hue told the owner to draft Carson Wentz and the GM told them not to.

Wentz blew up and now the GM has been fired.
These arguments are bad arguments
StoppedRainingMen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 04:16 PM   #2592
BillNye
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BillNye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KILL CHILDRESS
Posts: 9,390
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Where did you find an argument in that statement of what happened.
BillNye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 04:19 PM   #2593
StoppedRainingMen
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
StoppedRainingMen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: lol
Posts: 45,173
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

I’m not saying that’s your argument and I agree wentz specifically is probably why he was fired, it’s just a stupid reason is all
StoppedRainingMen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 04:19 PM   #2594
RunninCM
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 824
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

I am going to go with the theory that Hue is a garbage coach. I don’t see how anybody can defend him.
RunninCM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 04:21 PM   #2595
stinkubus
veteran
 
stinkubus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,753
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by StoppedRainingMen View Post
These arguments are bad arguments
Bill Belichek also had a losing record with the Browns. Your turn.
stinkubus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 04:48 PM   #2596
JMurder3
not god, probably jebus
 
JMurder3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In ya 4L, LLSNL, TWSS & POG.
Posts: 28,479
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

I apologize for everything nice I've said about the Browns for the last 2 years.

Lol Browns.
JMurder3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 05:12 PM   #2597
StoppedRainingMen
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
StoppedRainingMen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: lol
Posts: 45,173
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
Bill Belichek also had a losing record with the Browns. Your turn.
1. Frowns
StoppedRainingMen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 05:18 PM   #2598
stinkubus
veteran
 
stinkubus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,753
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMurder3 View Post
I apologize for everything nice I've said about the Browns for the last 2 years.

Lol Browns.
Really never understood the love the Browns got on this forum once they started stockpiling picks as nothing indicates that the "new" Browns management has ever been adept at identifying or developing talent.

That said Hue is a much better fit for a team with good offensive pieces in place. Then his creativity can shine. When your QB can't hit the broad side of a barn it's going to be hard to have any success without an all-world defense. "Young talent" isn't going to cut it, you need all-pros at every level like the Bucs and Ravens teams of the early 2000s had, or to make it more recent like Denver for Manning's last season.
stinkubus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 05:40 PM   #2599
JMurder3
not god, probably jebus
 
JMurder3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In ya 4L, LLSNL, TWSS & POG.
Posts: 28,479
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
Really never understood the love the Browns got on this forum once they started stockpiling picks as nothing indicates that the "new" Browns management has ever been adept at identifying or developing talent.

That said Hue is a much better fit for a team with good offensive pieces in place. Then his creativity can shine. When your QB can't hit the broad side of a barn it's going to be hard to have any success without an all-world defense. "Young talent" isn't going to cut it, you need all-pros at every level like the Bucs and Ravens teams of the early 2000s had, or to make it more recent like Denver for Manning's last season.
They were doing the exact same thing as the Jaguars & Raiders only on a much grander, more deliberate level.

The correct way to finish this off was to hire a great personnel guy to supplement the team, & to fire Hue who has shown he's actually sneakily incompetent.

Instead they'll hire some random hack like Jerry Reese who will pay tons of money for meh free agents & will blow the great foundation they currently have.
JMurder3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 05:57 PM   #2600
Dominic
Tripod
 
Dominic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Vegas
Posts: 61,396
Re: NFL Regular Season 2017

Dominic is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online