When the Pats asked their defense to win games for them and for Brady just not to **** it up, he could handle that role and win multiple games. When the Pats needed Brady to carry them in the playoffs, he chokes early and often. The defense can carry him to multiple playoff wins, but his chokes always end at game one.

My argument has been that Brady has been pretty fantastic over the last five years. Although I used to think they do, QB's don't win rings, teams do. So, a few bad games over a 5 year period should not be all that Brady is judged by. And underperformed in those five years is ludicrous. Of course he underperformed in the playoffs but that's a pretty small sample size of games he's played.

The point is a lot of people have ragged on Manning for the exact same **** that Brady is going through now. The point is, QB's performance is really overrated when it comes to Ws especially in the playoffs. Obviously it plays an importance and obviously most non-casual fans understand that. But the media plays up all of the SB winning QBs like they are golden gods when odds are they have probably just run good at the right time or conversely the rest of the team could have had a lot to do with their winning. I love Joe Montana. He has the most wins of any QB in the playoff era. I know that he's good but he's had great offensive players around him (Craig, Rice, Taylor, etc.) and he's had epically good Ds. But obviously Joe Cool gets a ton of the credit while Brady has had the same thing happen to him but now he's starting to run bad. Now the excuses are getting long for him. Truth be told, Brady and Manning don't really need excuses. Manning has run bad for most of his career in the playoffs. Brady had run well early on but has run bad now. Brady on top of having a good team has had a GOAT coach while Manning has had Dungy and the new guy who is a tard.

If it weren't for Giselle this wouldn't even be a discussion.

I'll take # of Pats playoff wins for the 2011 season

you can have any other team

who you got?

Green Bay.

pretty convenient time to change your viewpoint on this

chargers

ok, I will take $100 on each of these

confirm in prop bet thread if interested

edit: obv a tie is a push, no season = push

im not gonna do a 100 bet that will take a year to figure.

Posted in prop thread. Only stipulation is that if a team misses the playoffs and the other makes, the team that makes the playoffs wins the bet even if they lose their game.

Edit: Eh, lets just make it who advances further since 1st round playoff byes could screw things up and give one team more chances at wins.

yeah it would suck to tie that money up for a year!

no its mostly that i dont trust myself to remember a bet that long. theres an inherent risk of freerolling myself. you can even as clark, i nearly forgot a 500$ bet with him.

Yeah, I guess that's true but better not than never and I don't know if you've read the thread but I've conceded that Manning is better although that was before this season and clearly it's closer now. I think one or two more seasons like this one and it will most likely swing me towards Brady again.

It helps his cause as a great quarterback.

It also helps his cause as an epic choker.

The Brady supporters (not you specifically) have sort of made their bed though.

I would be fascinated to hear what made you change your mind on this score.

Logic.

i like how all the brady nuthuggers are trying to book this year as a win in the "Old and Ongoing Bicker about Manning vs. Brady Discussion"

How exactly could it be anything but?

well for instance if you spent a bunch of time arguing that regular season success followed by choking in the playoffs does not make a qb great

Indianapolis	Comp	Att	Yds	Pct	Y/A	Sack	YdsL	TD	Int	Rating
P. Manning	18	26	225	69.2	8.7	1	6	1	0	108.7

lo$t by 1

New England Patriots	Comp	Att	Yds	Pct	Y/A	Sack	YdsL	TD	Int	Rating
Tom Brady(notes)	29	45	299	64.4	6.6	5	40	2	1	89.0

and that includes an empty TD drive at the end of the game and they still lo$t by 7

Well, in the last few pages, I've argued quite the opposite hence I don't quite know what the heck you're talking about.

I know some others (epi namely) have put a ton more weight on the playoffs but as I said, I've conceded that type of thinking is ridiculous, hence my thinking that Peyton is better (which I said before this season happened). Clearly, if you take into account the regular season, this season was a plus for Brady and made the argument closer.

I'm not saying it's terribly comparable (what in football really is?) but Brady had a great season on a great team and a bit of run good (drop more passes DBs). Manning had a great season on one of the worst teams of his career (because of injuries, not personnel) and a fair bit of run bad (DBs could do no wrong this year).

I mean, obv Brady had the better year if we sortbyTD/INTratio but look at their lines:

Brady: 324-492 65.9% 3900 yards, 36 TDs/4 INTs, 25 Sacks, 111 QBR
Manning: 450-679 66.3% 4700 yards, 33 TDs/17 INTs, 16 Sacks, 91.9 QBR

I mean, do those years look remotely alike? Manning set the damn record for attempts because his team was stricken with brittle everything. Mannings extra yards are just a matter of compiling because he had to throw the ball (that said, having defenses knowing you're going to throw and being that accurate is pretty nuts). Brady threw 13 fewer INTs, but how much do we consider that given their different situations?