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NFL: In depth "Scouting" Of Draft Prospects (A forum "experiment") NFL: In depth "Scouting" Of Draft Prospects (A forum "experiment")

11-12-2012 , 02:19 PM
Utah vs BYU

Doing one more tape on Star. Seems like this thread was a poor decision but I promised one more work up so I'll give it on Star. Really thought there would be interest in this.

0:35: After getting a personal foul Star gets his hands inside and able to drive the OL back. Needs to recognize a bit quicker though and get off the OL.

1:17: We seen a zone left scheme from the OL. Star reads it and begins his crash down the line. He gives up ground which is a negative but is able to make the tackle outside the numbers only after a small gain. Fairly impressive movement. He really does manage to fly around the field which is a very good thing to see.

1:30: Another play he makes running down the field.

1:38: Stunt, he goes to the outside where he has contain. What is interesting out this play? He actually goes for a swim move. This is the first time in the 3 games we have seen him attempt something other than a bullrush. It must be technique as this is also the first stunt we see him on and he immediately goes for something else. Utah's coaches must tell him when he is inside he is a pure beast and to not go for other moves.

1:52: Good pass rush. Just bully's the center.

2:20: Moved him to the 3 technique. Able to use a bit more moves as he is a touch outside. See him get his hands up and knock down a pass.

***3:02*** Watch this play if you have any interest in DL technique. First step is amazing, he is already into the OL before the OL's second step. He has perfect hand placement, right in the chest, under the OL's, he is in full control. At this point he is able to push the OL back a bit and while doing so he can read the play. While doing so reads inside run, snatches his OL and is able to make a play on the back in the backfield. All he had to do was wrap up and we are talking 100% perfect, but he still gets an assisted tackle and praise in the film room.

3:37: Gets another hand up and deflects another pass. Almost gets a turnover.

4:25: This is an inside run play. They are doubling Lotulelei at the point of attack. Except he doesn't give up any ground. This allows for the LB to flow. This is perfect technique vs a double team. You can almost see him ready to drop if he loses ground. But he is so strong that its unnecessary. Great play despite not being in on the tackle. It's these kinds of plays that make NT and interior line players special. Its the plays that aren't normally recognized that are the most important.

4:46: They highlight the man next to Star but holy hell watch Star. Instantly recognizes the zone step and attacks that inside. He seriously has some of the quickest movement off the ball I have ever seen. That's NFL ready speed.

5:18: LOL, yeah...against the zone scheme Lotulelei is unreal. His reads and recognition is surreal. He just doesn't allow an OL to get their hands on him. So sick.

5:35: Double step confuses the guard into thinking he is going to opposite A gap. It blows up the protection and allows for him to get inside. He knew it was a pass, he knew it was 7 step protection not slide pro, and he had a plan. Recognition. Recognition. Recognition.

5:52: Wonder what pressure up the middle does? Watch this play. Two guys can't keep him at the LOS. He still gets up field and those two tipped balls got into the QB's head. He saw tip #3 happening and Star basically forces a fumble without making any contact.

6:36: I can keep saying it. Recognition, off the ball quick, ditches the center ASAP, makes a tackle, forces a fumble. He knows the play before its happening. He knows where the center is leaning, he attacks the weak spot of the block(though we don't teach a NT to take the long way around on this play he recognizes the center leaning and its a no brainer to take the long path instead of across his face). This game has been an eye opener. One of the best defensive prospects I have seen in a long time.

7:22: Ok, here is a big play for us to look at. One of the negatives I noted in the first two games was lack of other moves. This is now the 3rd time we have seen him use a secondary move outside of the bull rush. It's been the swim each time, which is fine. At 6'4 he is more than capable of pulling off a good swim. Ok, so first step, recognizes pass, instantaneous pass rush activated. So he crushes through the center. This is fantastic to see him going away from his comfort zone of bull rushing and you can see the center sink expecting it. Able to add in secondary moves is tremendously positive. You can catch OL off guard. Now comes the negative. He shoots through the gap so well and gets into the backfield at an amazing rate. Upfield inside rush is the best kind of rush. But he is playing out of control, if he slows his body down, breaks down, and wraps up, this is a no brainer sack and a huge play at this point in the game. This ends up being a negative play as you HAVE TO HIT the qb in this situation. Unfortunately he scrambles out and we see a positive gain against the defense.

9:15: Between the end of the 3rd quarter and now we basically just see him in full pass rush mode as BYU is down 3 scores. This is the first play where he is back playing NT and a semi-2 gap. He clearly looks more comfortable inside in that spot that in the 3 technique or 5 technique where they were shifting him around. Utah’s defense looks stronger in the 5-2 than it does in the 4-3. You can almost attribute this to the LBs able to move a bit more freely with Lotulelei in the middle.

9:25: LOL trying to cut Star.

9:30: His recognition gets the best of him now. He reads outside run but it’s a counter. He gets caught in the wash.

10:00-10:35: Pass rushing. Some gap penetration, some swim moves, some bull rush. Nothing we haven’t seen and he was having success with all of his moves.

10:35: Well, maybe the biggest play of the game. Up the middle penetration on a field goal and gets about 5 yards deep and gets a block on a 51 yard field goal attempt. Not bad, lol.

Negatives: I still don’t like him taking a few plays off. It doesn’t happen as much in this game, maybe because it’s a rival game, but he does seem to attack much more. It could also be that he demoralized the center so much he knew he could do whatever he wanted with him. Still occasionally he is hanging out and not doing much on a pass rush, just looking to jump and bat down a pass.

Positive: Secondary move. We wanted to see one and we got it, a number of times. We know he can bull rush, well we now see him attacking with the swim move. This is a huge thing for him and the fact that the move is legit helps his pass rushing a ton. He was 2 gapping, he was reading, and we saw his play recognition in this game. Its tremendous. He reacts to the OL in front of him and obviously spent some time in film. This is a huge ++ for
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11-12-2012 , 03:26 PM
I'm still interested. Maybe you should start taking requests of guys. Do one of Bjorn Werner if you can. A lot of talk of him being maybe the best DE in this class
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11-13-2012 , 10:58 AM
Is this thread supposed to be limited to front 7 guys that most people don't know about?
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11-13-2012 , 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDebo
I'm still interested. Maybe you should start taking requests of guys. Do one of Bjorn Werner if you can. A lot of talk of him being maybe the best DE in this class
As I said earlier in the thread prospects are dependent on who has videos available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncla
Is this thread supposed to be limited to front 7 guys that most people don't know about?
Well...in the normal draft thread everyone discusses QBs, RBs, and WRs. But its not limited by any means to OL/DL/TE/LB.
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11-13-2012 , 12:06 PM
I'm pretty sure the point of this thread is just to drive Needle insane by constantly requesting different players
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11-13-2012 , 02:19 PM
I dunno if a projected top-5 NT qualifies as "a guy no one knows about"
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11-13-2012 , 08:18 PM
Some old videos but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtP-K5E3UAY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV4Bu_T1CNs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTLRvX9BZjA

Last edited by KDebo; 11-13-2012 at 08:19 PM. Reason: <3 Needle. Give you much props
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11-13-2012 , 08:57 PM
Great thread!! Thanks Needle!!
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11-13-2012 , 09:13 PM
Watching the Star Lotulelei film..

First thing that stands out is how well he stays low and uses his hands. Here's where my first question would come in Needle... he seems to have his arms straight out onto the OL a lot. It helps him stay away from the OL so he can get off easier, but it seems like it would hurt him from a leverage standpoint. Is this optimal? Do you use your arms that in certain situations and adjust in others?

The play at 1:40 in the USC game is incredibly impressive. Gets off two different blockers effortlessly to make a play.

Seems to get way too high too fast at 1:58

The play at 3:10 that you refer to seems to be a problem with letting Holmes get his hands into his body. It seems like once you let a good OL take away your hands, you're pretty much going wherever he wants you to go.

gonna look at the rest of the USC game later after the Michigan bball game
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11-13-2012 , 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjw0586
Watching the Star Lotulelei film..

First thing that stands out is how well he stays low and uses his hands. Here's where my first question would come in Needle... he seems to have his arms straight out onto the OL a lot. It helps him stay away from the OL so he can get off easier, but it seems like it would hurt him from a leverage standpoint. Is this optimal? Do you use your arms that in certain situations and adjust in others?
This is a tremendously good question. A lot of us that are NFL fans are very accustomed to watching these elite DE's like Freeney and Pierre-Paul that want to have as little contact with the offensive player as possible. These are players that fit a very specific style(for Freeney he was a pure speed rusher and for Pierre Paul he rather be playing in space).

As for most players and just about every single interior player, having your hands on the player is much better than not. We are looking at an interior player here. When you play on the inside you are going to see blocks from 3 different angles along the line and then we add in traps and quick isos from backside OL and FBs respectively.

What you are taught on your first day of college football on the defensive side of the ball is to take on half of a man. You make sure that your base is splitting the OL in half. That way you keep your leverage in your gap. In this situation you can have your hands on the OL AND not lose leverage, which is the concern you brought up. Star is attempting to two-gap every once in a blue moon and in those plays you can see his base is even with the OL instead of cheating into a gap and in those plays he has to read and react.

Now imagine him two gapping against those zone plays while not trying to get his hands on the OL. Forget about making a play, he is going to get reach blocked due to having no control over the OL in front of him. This immediately creates that seam in the zone scheme and you now have to rely on your LB to read the seam as well as the RB. Thats a bad situation.

Now if he can get his hands shot out and control the shoulder pad to inside chest plate pad of the OL he can ride the zone down. By doing this he doesn't have to penetrate the line to make the play, but instead he won't get reach blocked and can ride the play to the sidelines and at that point the LB can determine where the RB will be forced to go(Hint: Inside) and there is your TFL. NT's and DT's aren't really expected to be in a lot of tackles. But instead are expected to be taking on blockers(preferably more than one) and keeping them at the LOS so that the LBs can flow and read freely.


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The play at 1:40 in the USC game is incredibly impressive. Gets off two different blockers effortlessly to make a play.
When you read a zone as well as Lotulelei does he makes it look effortless. His footwork is flawless and never gets caught leaning nor does he get caught with his upper body in front of his lower body which can happen when trying to stop the zone. The seam opens and if one of those two OL could have held him at the line there isn't an LB in sight, that play is going for a long gain if not for Star.

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Seems to get way too high too fast at 1:58
That's a great catch and we see how a OL beats a DL on this play. It was easy to turn Star once the OL's shoulder pads are lower than his own. It really can be that easy to block a player that stands up. Not to mention Star also looks like he was guessing a gap and got caught. Thanks for noting that play.


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The play at 3:10 that you refer to seems to be a problem with letting Holmes get his hands into his body. It seems like once you let a good OL take away your hands, you're pretty much going wherever he wants you to go.
This play is two fold. The center wins this outright. One thing you are taught as an OL that in the zone if a player wants to run out of control to the outside...take him. Star comes crashing down, almost as if on a stunt(which he may have been) and the center can just ride him away. But also, as you note, Star never gets his hands out in front. Really does look like a stunt as in that situation he is just trying to shoot the gap. That would really be the only time you don't want to get your hands on a player is when your sole goal is to slant through a gap. Center does a good job at recognizing and just wins the play.
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11-13-2012 , 11:41 PM
thanks for the response, lots of good stuff there

I'm going to disagree with you on the play at 3:38:

He definitely seems to guess quite a bit, but I don't think this is one of those plays. He tries to get low on Holmes and Holmes lets him come into his body (and grabs him a bit). After that happens, the LG comes in and seals him to create the hole that Redd runs through. It took me a few times to catch this scheme, but I think that's what's going on. It's a really nice concept. Of course I may be off here, but I think Star just got out-schemed here. It really looks to me like he's trying to take on Holmes 1 on 1 initially.

3:47- This is another interesting play to me. It looks like Holmes isn't really trying to drive on the run block to get Star off to the right to create a cut back lane to the left. This seems to me like a recognition problem more than anything. He needs to focus on what Holmes is doing rather than just trying to beat him. He almost gets off the block, but if he recognizes it earlier, he makes a big play.

4:02- This is the first play that I've seen him play under control when he wasn't going to get to the ball. He tries to bull rush, recognizes he won't get there, and makes a good effort to bat the ball down. I like it, but he needs to do this some more.

5:03- I think this is a good example of what you talk about wrt him putting his head down. He gets moved to the left too far because he's unaware of where he is and the RB runs through right where he would have been.

7:04- beast mode

7:12- I really like this play from him too. He gets good leverage but can't quite get the push he wants. Barkley is holding onto the ball, so he keeps pushing and eventually breaks free. I feel like a lot of DTs in this place go to a spin move or move out of their position which opens up space for the QB to scramble. He stays disciplined even despite getting denied initially.

He definitely seems to slow down at the end. Conditioning might be a concern. He definitely needs to develop something other than a bull rush even though he does it very well
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11-13-2012 , 11:47 PM
I really encourage people to go through some of this tape. It may seem daunting, but even if you have a basic knowledge of football, you're going to see things that stand out about what offensive and defensive linemen are trying to do (and whether they're successful at it). You can really learn a ton just by making basic observations and asking questions itt
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11-14-2012 , 12:06 AM
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0:28: First negative, he drops his head on his first step. Thatís a big red flag. Players that drop their heads on contact are first and foremost injury risks and needless to say, you canít engage what you canít see. With that said, he recognizes zone left. And he just rides his OL down the line. This is a very good play and gets a positive overall for the down.
It looks like he drops his head real quick and picks it up a half-second later. Is it any better that he corrected it quickly? Is this a habit that is generally easy to break?
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0:50: Itís a non play but you see his motor in attacking the PA player.
His get off looks special on that play (along with the play on 1:20...and basically throughout the entire game) particularly for someone of his size. In general, I would guess that having an elite get off is one of, if not the most important attribute of any pass rushing prospect because it's not something you can teach.

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2:50: Ugh, ok here is an ugly play. He is attempting to shoot a gap. He gets caught in a slide protection. So instead of staying on path and trying to play it out. He bails out and spins. This is in hopes that he can catch the center cheating and get by. Let me tell you, college players arenít gonna get caught by this, and Iím gonna assume that NFL players arenít either.
It looked like he realized he wasn't getting to the QB and hesitated mid-spin, or just gave a total half-assed effort on the spin.

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2:58: Drops his head on contact again.
Seems like he was able to overcome this and still push his man back and blow up the play. To piggy back on what I asked before, is this something he would consistently be able to overcome in the NFL?

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3:10: ERMAGERD Get off.
wowowow

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3:38: Another negative play on my grade. They get a shift from the LBs, looks like a heavy check of some sort so they move to not be outflanked. He shoots up field and then pivots and goes for the spin. If instead he shoots upfield and rips across the OLís face, he gets a TFL. But because he spins he isnít in position and didnít see the RBÖso it is not a TFL, but instead a gain.
He looks really bad on the spin and way off balance when he comes out of it (even though the RB is already by him). He looks like he's just twirling for the lulz.

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5:15: Ugh. He has looked solid on plays than this play is all-time bad. Gives up on his rush for the bat down. Ok so he takes away a passing lane, but still rather see him attempting to pressure. Well the DBs behind him are doing their job and he sees the QB bailing out of the pocket. So here comes his 2nd rush. Gets the QB dead to rights, all he needs to do is breakdown. Runs right by.
His 2nd effort was lolbad. Do you think that's a product of fatigue? Or he just went full ****** when he saw he had such an OMG CLEAR SHOT AT THE QB?

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6:00: Watch this play. Get off. A+. Goes to hand fight aka getting the OLís hands off of him. A+. Offbalance OL leads to a pure bull rush lane. A+. Bowls over the OL and gets a sack. A+.
Motor + get off is elite on this play. Seems like a play very few players can make. Really impressed with how well he finished the play.

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6:20: We get to see a true play of his in the run game. He is attacking a gap. With that he just dips under the scoop block from the guard. Pure penetration and disrupts the play in the backfield.
Yeah but he didn't finish the play and it looks like he lost his cool after he missed the tackle and tried to kick the RB. How do you grade a guy when he loses it like that?

I think he "flashes" an elite motor, in that he finishes plays incredibly well, but not consistently. Along with his get off, he looks like a guy that won't bust at the NFL level often. Seems like he's caught out of control at the end of plays too often and his attempts at spinning are particularly lol.
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11-14-2012 , 12:29 AM
Problem with trying to generate opposing opinions and discussion is that your credentials trumps most of ours by a considerable margin. Do I question my doctor when he shows an x-ray of my broken ankle?

All of us aren't perfect, but emphasizing your reputation makes this more you reporting on players rather than really establishing disagreements about them.
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11-14-2012 , 12:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUberBob
Problem with trying to generate opposing opinions and discussion is that your credentials trumps most of ours by a considerable margin. Do I question my doctor when he shows an x-ray of my broken ankle?

All of us aren't perfect, but emphasizing your reputation makes this more you reporting on players rather than really establishing disagreements about them.
Meh I tried to make it as much as possible that I don't know what I'm talking about. The resume was strictly for people that have no idea who I am. All the regulars on here know who I am and what I have been a part of.
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11-14-2012 , 12:37 AM
SUB,

gfy
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11-14-2012 , 12:38 AM
I'm currently playing BLOPs2. I'll get to Tweedy and MJW's comments tomorrow. In the meantime I'd suggest looking at what they put in and compare to what I have said before.
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11-14-2012 , 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needle77
Meh I tried to make it as much as possible that I don't know what I'm talking about. The resume was strictly for people that have no idea who I am. All the regulars on here know who I am and what I have been a part of.
I'm learning something from these reports
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11-14-2012 , 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjw0586
I'm going to disagree with you on the play at 3:38:

He definitely seems to guess quite a bit, but I don't think this is one of those plays. He tries to get low on Holmes and Holmes lets him come into his body (and grabs him a bit). After that happens, the LG comes in and seals him to create the hole that Redd runs through. It took me a few times to catch this scheme, but I think that's what's going on. It's a really nice concept. Of course I may be off here, but I think Star just got out-schemed here. It really looks to me like he's trying to take on Holmes 1 on 1 initially.
Hmm...ok I've watched it a few times. I'm still seeing him attack the gap quickly and the LB behind him isn't cheating backside. If it were a stunt the Lb would **** back to protect that backside gap. Maybe I'm underestimating the LB and he reads zone right immediately and calls off his stunt and is reacting to the RB now.

With that said, I'm perfectly fine with saying he got out-schemed here. This is a tough play to diagnose from the sideline cam. Would benefit us greatly to have the end zone cam here. Onto the technique portion. What I still don't like is that he engages the center but never really takes the center off path. The center still gets up to the 2nd level rather easily and if the center slows his body down in the open field he can throw a block on that LB. Instead he overruns him and its a non-factor. But if you watch the play and imagine if that LB gets blocked like he should. Redd has to make one person miss(backside LB) and we are talking about a fairly large gain here(Redd's path will be more to the outside due to the LB getting blocked so #44 doesn't make a play of him).

Man Star really does get taken down the line on this play though. Ugh...

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3:47- This is another interesting play to me. It looks like Holmes isn't really trying to drive on the run block to get Star off to the right to create a cut back lane to the left. This seems to me like a recognition problem more than anything. He needs to focus on what Holmes is doing rather than just trying to beat him. He almost gets off the block, but if he recognizes it earlier, he makes a big play.
What's cool about this play is Star reading the FB. It's an Iso play and normally you want to follow your FB. Redd reads Star riding his center so he cuts it back. But this is case and point of why 2 gapping is so difficult. The entire defense follows the FB into that gap. Redd's vision takes him on a cut inside rather than the downhill path. Like you said, he doesn't recognize it quick enough. Well that recognition is what makes 2 gapping players so valuable and so much more elite than other players(though we would never discuss such a thing as its far to difficult to notice).

Center does a good job here at the very least keeping Star in front of him. But really Star is in full control with his get off and hand placement(look to see exactly where his hands are. This is picture perfect technique from a DT).

LOL...forgot that Palmer goes over it afterwards. He notes it on the replay. Just watch the defense run with that FB.

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4:02- This is the first play that I've seen him play under control when he wasn't going to get to the ball. He tries to bull rush, recognizes he won't get there, and makes a good effort to bat the ball down. I like it, but he needs to do this some more.
We see him do this much better in the BYU game. The BYU game was 2 weeks earlier. I wonder if he is pressing more in this game to hold his defense together where in the BYU game he felt that those behind him would make more plays. Sometimes with 21-22 year olds these things can become an issue.


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5:03- I think this is a good example of what you talk about wrt him putting his head down. He gets moved to the left too far because he's unaware of where he is and the RB runs through right where he would have been.

7:04- beast mode
Very good catch at 5:03. You note it later on in your post but it does seem like he is getting tired. Once you get tired technique begins to disappear. Dropping your head can be one of the first things to happen when you aren't focused.

That 7:04 play is so good.

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7:12- I really like this play from him too. He gets good leverage but can't quite get the push he wants. Barkley is holding onto the ball, so he keeps pushing and eventually breaks free. I feel like a lot of DTs in this place go to a spin move or move out of their position which opens up space for the QB to scramble. He stays disciplined even despite getting denied initially.
Another very good catch. Not much more I can say, you put it very well.

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He definitely seems to slow down at the end. Conditioning might be a concern. He definitely needs to develop something other than a bull rush even though he does it very well
Very good points. With regards to conditioning when you have a player of his size(well pretty much any interior DL player) its likely going to be an issue. The big difference of being 320+ on DL than OL is that on OL you are goign forward, you know where the ball is going, and the effort exerted on a play to play basis isn't as much as DL. OL is much more refined, technique driven, staying stabilized and playing under control. Now we obviously want to see technique and under control for DL but it is different. Also on DL you have to read and react constantly, legs always moving and flowing. DL are much more likely to run out of steam quicker than OL.

With all that said, in the NFL he will get blows. To me he has proven to be a 3 down player. But, like most interior players and DL players as a whole, he is a 60-70 snap guy rather than the 80 snap every down every play guy. Thats not a knock, its just a reality. When you draft DL thats just what is expected. This analogy is going to suck but when you draft DL, and this is even more true for those speed rush/pass rush DE's, it's like drafting a stud pitcher in baseball. Its important and necessary, but you aren't getting the every down player that you would if it was an OL, QB, LB, DB(besides coverage packages players, ldo) much like you would in baseball when you draft the position players that will play every day.

To the last statement whats a bit discouraging about the USC film is the fact that he ONLY BULLRUSHES. BYU he shows a swim move. Why, two weeks later, does he not go to the swim? Was he nervous about the centers abilities? Was he told by the coaches no? Is it a defensive scheme situation where he was supposed to be 2 gapping much more and not pass rushing? It is an eye opener and makes me a bit nervous about him.

I hope we get a bowl film or a late season game of him on youtube to watch.

Thanks MJW, very informative post. Loved going through your views and hope I added good information where I could.
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11-16-2012 , 12:35 AM
Great topic Needle. I will definitely be reading if you do more.
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11-25-2012 , 04:39 PM
Manti Te'o Scouting Report:

Before watching the film, I'm interested in a few things:

1. Is his production in his senior year due to ND's beastly Dline? He seemed to take a step back in his junior year and now he's a Heisman candidate.
2. How is he making his reads? It's easier to read the backfield in college due to the talent level, but reading the Dline properly is going to be necessary at the next level.
3. Is his size going to be an issue in the NFL?

Junior film: Florida State (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1ChVj22fyE)



:06- This is a 2 LB set against a big offensive package. Looks like a run at the snap, so he's moving forward just before the snap. He gets caught too far forward and gets taken out of the play by the TE. If he waits until the snap, he could read the OL slanting right and help seal off the outside a little better. I think he got caught guessing run here a bit. His DL got beat pretty bad too so he didn't get any help.

:19- Obvious passing down, it looks like his responsibility is the RB. He hesitates a bit, I think to try to potentially jump the inside WR, but he's defended. He's late getting to the RB and lets him get outside. He ends up making a strip on the RB which leads to a TD, but I think his hesitation got him out of position a bit here.

:41- He gets caught guessing here too. He shoots upfield right away, taking himself out of the play.

:46- He's blitzing here and he does a good job. He waits for a second and sees the middle of the line wide open, shoots the gap nicely, and forces an easy sack. He does a nice job forcing the QB outside, even if he misses the tackle, he has help from his DL.

1:08- OL is blocking straight up here. He guesses right, I think based on the position of the handoff. He crosses over the LB who has responsibility for the left side of the play, leaving the right side wide open. He makes a nice recovery, but again, he guesses wrong. If he shoots the gap he's supposed to, the run goes nowhere.

1:27- He reads the play well, but he lets the OL get engaged into him without holding the outside. He should be trying to half of his body to the outside but he fails to do so and he can't get off the block as a result. He's going to get beat a lot in the NFL if he can't get to the half and half position when he gets engaged.

1:52- He does here what he didn't on the play at 1:27. He has outside help and he keeps half his body to the inside so he's not fully engaged. So he's able to get off the block. This is a complete turnaround from the previous play.

1:57- He guesses run and vacates the middle of the field on play action. He's guessing a lot in this game.

2:40- He reads this as run because he's finally watching the OL rather than the backfield. Big improvement. It allows him to be in position on the dump off and he makes a nice break on the ball. He certainly does a great job breaking on receivers and ball handlers when he reads the play correctly.

A couple plays in the late 2nd quarter he misses tackles because he's lunging after ball carriers.

3:20- stays back, head up, form tackle.. this is really nice

4:05- he drops back a lot at the snap and makes a great break to the ball to ruin a nicely set up screen pass

4:21- This looks like his eyes are in the backfield on the hand off. If he was watching the OL, he'd see right away that this is a run play. That split second difference allows the OL to engage him where he can't really get off the block properly.

4:36- this is the same 5 DL, 2 LB set that he got caught guessing twice on early in the film. He gets engaged and sealed so he doesn't keep outside contain once again.

My feeling after this tape is that he's guessing way too much. His eyes are often in the backfield and it's hurting him in terms of getting engaged and sealed off easier than he should. He has some good and bad in terms of his body position when he gets engaged. He's making great reads and breaks on the ball when he drops back in pass coverage, but he's lunging a bit too much when he's trying to make tackles.

Senior film: Michigan State (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bij34pztFEE)



:13- He hesitates slightly, but drops into coverage and then makes a great read and break on the pass to force it incomplete.. if he doesn't hesitate, he might be able to pick it off but a good play nonetheless. He does get to the receiver early, but it's still a nice read.

:42- He guesses run incorrectly... the OL blocking tips off a pass immediately. He's still guessing.

:54- He gets engaged by an OL but manages to move his way to gain position outside which allows him to get off the block and make a tackle. This is something I didn't see at all in the FSU tape, so it's pretty encouraging.

1:23- He reads the play rather than guessing here. He does a great job to avoid two blockers and make the tackle for no gain. This is a great play that really didn't get noticed.

2:02- He does a good job again of keeping his outside shoulder free to get off the block and make the tackle.

2:34- He does the same thing he did in the FSU game. He's the left side linebacker in a 2 LB set and he crosses behind the right LB despite there being a big hole that he should be filling on his side of the formation. He's fortunate that Bell misses the cut back lane here.

Early 3rd quarter his tackling looks a lot better than it did in the FSU game. He's not lunging, he's just wrapping up with his head up. Definitely an improvement here

3:57- Right when I say that he gets caught lunging for a tackle. He has easy inside position here, the WR can't go anywhere... but Te'o lunges upfield which opens up a running lane for the receiver.

4:49- He's very undersized in this matchup, but his break on the ball allows him to break the pass up. He has outstanding instincts in the passing game, and he's going to need them in the NFL because he's going to face a lot of these type of match-ups.

This film is not so exciting because Michigan State's offense is AIDS. He seems to improve on some of his technical errors from the FSU game, but he still gets caught guessing way too much.

Senior film: Michigan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVrXuLsnkUc)



:00- He's got his eyes on Denard here. Michigan runs a fake reverse which Te'o falls for badly. This is a pretty big indication to me that his eyes are still in the backfield instead of on the blockers that he's going to need to shed on this play. There's plenty of help on the backside and his responsibility is stopping the Denard run but he abandons it following the fake toss.

:23- I think he does a really nice job here. Left guard pulls and Michigan's running a midline read. Te'o stays in the middle of the field until the handoff and then shifts to his left to help stop the running back. He sheds his block pretty nicely here.

1:05- He does a great job here. He beats the left guard outside which forces Taylor Lewan to help out. ND has numbers on the outside due to Te'o taking up 2 linemen and the play goes nowhere.

1:20- lunges after the running back a bit

2:04- He gets caught outside of his blocker here. He has another defender that has the outside covered. Denard sees Te'o outside of the blocker and cuts it inside for a big gain.

2:13- Note: **** THIS PLAY. Te'o sees the pitch and makes a great break on the ball. RB is throwing it and his break causes an under throw that results in a redzone interception. **** you Al Borges.

2:43- He gets nice depth on his drop back here. Ball gets thrown right to him. WTF Denard

3:14- I'm not sure if he's guessing or blitzing here. Once he commits though, he does a great job. He covers the RB on the fake. Once he realizes it's a fake, he gets to Denard immediately and forces a bad throw for an interception.

3:39- He's guessing here again. He shifts to his left initially despite the right guard pulling in the opposite direction. He gets caught in no man's land and gets taken out of the play way too easily.

4:10- He gets a little bit anxious here and shoots the wrong gap. He tries to go inside of the guard where he needs to try to break up the play between the guard and the blocking WR. He's got no chance to get Denard and Denard breaks off a big run. If he takes on the other gap, he could have forced Denard inside where ND has a much better chance of limiting the play.

4:29- !!!!!! He reads the guard for the first time that I've seen on film. It leads him right to the hole where he stuffs the play and Denard goes nowhere. This is exactly what he needs to do more. If he would have had his eyes in the backfield, he wouldn't have been able to get to the hole in time and Denard would have had a huge hole.

4:57- He's the outside linebacker here but he has a safety and a CB helping him out in run support that are outside of him. He drifts outside of the guard leaving a huge hole for Denard to run through. If he keeps inside position here, the play goes nowhere.

6:17- He guesses run incorrectly and then he spends the rest of the play running around in circles. He ends up making a play but I have no idea what he is doing here. He's all over the place with no real purpose. I think he panicked a bit after he guessed wrong and saw Denard was scrambling. He needs to stay in position better here. Again, if he reads the OL, it's clear they're not run blocking initially.


Overall thoughts:

1. He guesses way too much. He makes one play in the Michigan game where he reads a pulling guard and it leads to him stuffing Denard. Otherwise, he seems to have his eyes in the backfield on every play. That is really going to hurt him in the NFL.
2. He tries too hard to be a play maker. It gets him out of position quite a bit. He crossed over the other LB in a 2 LB set multiple times and left big holes for the running game.
3. He also tends to struggle with taking on blockers properly. He guesses to the wrong side or he takes them on straight on. He really needs to work on keeping contain and keeping his outside shoulder free so he can get off blocks better.
4. His instincts in the passing game are outstanding. He gets good depth on his drops and so he keeps everything in front of him. He breaks on the ball as well as anyone.
5. His tackling is mostly good. He had a problem lunging in his FSU film, but it seemed to improve a lot in his senior film.
NFL: In depth &quot;Scouting&quot; Of Draft Prospects (A forum &quot;experiment&quot;) Quote
11-25-2012 , 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needle77
Meh I tried to make it as much as possible that I don't know what I'm talking about. The resume was strictly for people that have no idea who I am. All the regulars on here know who I am and what I have been a part of.
The thing is that you do know what you are talking about. Your break downs and understanding of line play is easily in the top 0.0000001% of SE followers. No one is perfect. Just because you missed on a couple people on projecting how they'd do on the NFL doesn't mean you can't break down film.
NFL: In depth &quot;Scouting&quot; Of Draft Prospects (A forum &quot;experiment&quot;) Quote
11-26-2012 , 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjw0586
Overall thoughts:

1. He guesses way too much. He makes one play in the Michigan game where he reads a pulling guard and it leads to him stuffing Denard. Otherwise, he seems to have his eyes in the backfield on every play. That is really going to hurt him in the NFL.
2. He tries too hard to be a play maker. It gets him out of position quite a bit. He crossed over the other LB in a 2 LB set multiple times and left big holes for the running game.

3. He also tends to struggle with taking on blockers properly. He guesses to the wrong side or he takes them on straight on. He really needs to work on keeping contain and keeping his outside shoulder free so he can get off blocks better.
4. His instincts in the passing game are outstanding. He gets good depth on his drops and so he keeps everything in front of him. He breaks on the ball as well as anyone.
5. His tackling is mostly good. He had a problem lunging in his FSU film, but it seemed to improve a lot in his senior film.
First thing I thought of was Junior Seau. Coincidence that they are both Samoan, he may have modeled his game after him.
NFL: In depth &quot;Scouting&quot; Of Draft Prospects (A forum &quot;experiment&quot;) Quote
11-26-2012 , 04:27 PM
NFL: In depth &quot;Scouting&quot; Of Draft Prospects (A forum &quot;experiment&quot;) Quote
11-26-2012 , 04:52 PM
Since I have All22 and haven't really used it as much as I wanted due to work I might try to understand the essence of what you look at and apply it to some NFL player.

For NT I have the following so far
- First step+hand placement (inside wins?)
- Don't get head down on contact
- Drive/legs
- How often is he doubled (respect) and how does he fare against the double team. Seems like a draw is a solid win for the NT due to the numbers game and beating a double team is elite?
- Ride asscheek in zone :P
- "Moves" (I assume we're mostly interested in the rip at least Sapp always makes fun of swim moves :P)
- How often is he on the field/stamina

Not sure what exactly I should look for regarding technique (you mention he has excellent technique sometimes). What about leg placement/ffot movement, "lowness"/leverage and hand placement. Any pointers?

I'm a scientist and our holy grail is abstraction so I'm trying to understand how to analyze a position in general from your specific player analysis ldo

I'm also curious at the HS (double state champs woot, woot) level how much time do you spend on watching film of opponents vs your own guys? I assume improving your own guys is most important?
Let's assume some massive dude that could play NT for your school but never played football before moves to your school district. How owuld you go about teaching him the position, what do typical drills look like what would you focus on?

Last edited by clowntable; 11-26-2012 at 05:10 PM.
NFL: In depth &quot;Scouting&quot; Of Draft Prospects (A forum &quot;experiment&quot;) Quote

      
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