really weak thought process, fwiw.

If they hadn't changed the voting formula, the pure fan voting for Lonzo could create all sorts of problems. He's insanely well-known/popular, especially in younger age demos.

is there a way to group current top 20 PG's rookie season on bbref? would be cool to just glaze over the stats in a concise way

pretty lol decision.

This statement doesnt answer my question, nor does it have anything to do with my question. Rather than making a lazy, dumbass statement like this, you could have just answered it (if you're capable).

Dope post, get the thread back on track. I think the shooting is definitely variance, both him running hot last year and somewhat cold this year. It's not surprising at all that LeBron is generates more open looks for 3 point shooters (even BradGOAT) but I think to part of the point you made about Brad v Lue actually goes to KC's point about LeBron. The Cavs have some great possessions where the ball is hopping and there's lots of action/movement, this is when they're at their best and I'd bet these are the possessions that are more likely to end in made 3's. But more and more in Cleveland LeBron has been CP3'ing and it's just tough to get into a rhythm as a shooter when your job is to stand around, maybe set a flare screen, and eventually catch and shoot. I'm not sure the % difference is enormous, but I also wouldn't be shocked to learn there was some difference.

Clayton,

Here's a decent sort:

actual lol

Nah. BRAD would turn Lauri into the next Dirk. Also Lauri is actually a better fit on the Celtics given their abundance of wings who can play D. Irving/Smaht/Brown/Lauri/Horford would be sick. I mean it'll probably look lol bc Tatum has Brad and Lauri is in the worst situation imaginable, but oh well.

unfortunately Bref groups by G/F/C, not PG. This is a decent sort, though it excludes Magic cuz I limited it guys under 6'8" to try to weed out some SGs.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...0&order_by=per

wowww kyrie goat.

also, it's worth noting, my beef isn't with pointing out how rookie PGs tend to do poorly, my point is with Lonzo, his stats only tell a partial story. First of all, he's rebound whoring and he gets home-cookin on assists, so his bad numbers actually look better than his actual output. And the thing is with other "bad" rookie PGs, let's say with Kidd or Rondo or Wall, you could at least see the makings of a player. They were lightning quick, great athletes, could get by guys one on one, and didn't die on screens. And they didn't play scared.

Ball is getting a bunch of benefit from playing on a young team that runs (3rd in pace), which, good on Luke, they need to. That plays exactly to Ball's strengths, and he's still extremely crappy. He's useless in the half-court because he picks up his dribble the second he's met with pressure.

It's just hard to see any path to him being an all-star level player. He can work on his handles, he can fix his broken shot, and then I guess maybe his best outcome is a better Jose Calderon, a decent player for sure. But a legit, non-voted all-star? Please.

Here's the thing:

2018 DRAFT >>>> 2017 draft more and more by the day

It's weird to say they play exactly to Ball's strengths considering nobody else on the team knows how to pass nor is willing to pass. He's a guy who looks like he'd fit in best in a high IQ ball movement offense.


Also kind of lame to harp on his "rebound whoring" considering how great he is at pushing/moving the ball down court, his transition game has looked great.

Feels like that's been said every year for the last 5 years.

Tatum is prob a better shooter than Lauri.

thx for the bbref sort

i think ball is a lock to improve his handle and he will get to average shooter just by sheer regression (his college shooting numbers are hard to ignore even if they are bloated in terms of distance and defender length). my main issue with him right now is his defense. i think he can fix his offense and in a system that relies heavily on transition he can use those strengths to be very valuable yet schemable in the playoffs. i think he will also get exponentially better when surrounded with elite talent.

i think pre-draft his allstar appearances o/u (on talent and not voting) would have been like 3 and now i think it's more like 1.

thayer i can't do anything about his teammates, four of which are way better than him, just saying they play up and down which suits ball perfectly. It was a pretty clear point. He'd be doing much worse in Dallas.

As in, he's great at starting transition plays? Because that is undoubtedly true. But it pretty much ends there so far. Lakers are like league worst in PPP in transition plays with Ball on the court, largely because he's making the wrong decisions or can't finish.

So yes, he's good at starting transition and they're basically abysmal at scoring on transition plays when he's leading the charge.

I'm sure that's what you meant.

yeah if we take this back to the whole bradGOAT argument, a big reason i was high on lonzo was figuring that brad + lonzo would be insane.

my tatum comps pre-draft were rudy gay in roberson's body (or carmelo in roberson's body) and look at what brad is doing w/ that.

I will say I admire the persistence on creating pros for Lonzo that don't really exist

tatum is like 25% to be > paul george imo, there's no way i trade him. but lauri is looking pretty great too.

Cvig you're the person most obsessed with lonzo, by far.

I think its way higher than 25%.

I mean I think it's a pretty interesting case study of a player, and a lot of flat out wrong things are being said about his game, basically any pro created for his offensive game so far is just a wrong assumption, so they're worth noting.

Yeah I was criticized for calling Tatum "Melo with a great coach and possibly not an idiot", which is super duper awesome!

I've watched most of his games this year and I just don't get it. He looks worse than he did in Denver except at the very end. I wonder if the optimal Nurk needs to be a little thicker to take advantage of his strength. Also I think it's just a terrible decision to let him post-up, like at all. He's been in the league 4 years and worked on it extensively, yet his efficiency in that department as always been in the bottom quartile of what is already an inefficient possession.

He's one of the best screeners in the game and a good roller who seems to have improved from 16-23 feet, why he's always posting up is beyond me and used to tilt me so hard.