Yes, including defense. But since you brought it up, it's pretty obvious that Wiggins has a good chance to be a better defender than DDR. He's probably not going to be great the way that I hoped he would, but his defensive ceiling is probably a bit above average. A DDR with average defense and not a broken 3pt shot is really good! An above median outcome for a #1 overall even I would guess.

If Wiggins is no better than Gay, is he considered a bust?

Depends on who is rating him. I'd say yes but that's because Rudy is in some ways worse than cancerous because he hurts teams lineups without hurting their locker room.

Wiggins is a lock to be better, but I just see him as a guy who needs to lead your team in FGA, and if/when he does that your team is capped afa ship equity is concerned. That was my argument for trading for someone like an Otto Porter plus picks or whatever--Wiggins is great at things minny really doesn't need, but is not good to very bad at skills that are important to Minny.

Could you explain that last sentence? Why is a "high FGA at non-elite efficiency" type guy particularly unimportant to Minny IYO? Admittedly I haven't given it too much thought but... Rubio is the definition of pass first, Dieng is very limited offensively and I can't imagine Lavine is the sort of guy you want carrying a big load. Feels to me like they need a guy who just puts the ball in the basket. KAT can't just rock 40% USG.

Note: I agree that the kind of player Wiggins is - "high FGA at non-elite efficiency" - isn't super valuable in general (though I think a little underrated around here), I'm just questioning why you think he's bad for Minnesota in particular

Please stop comparing Andrew Wiggins to scrubs that miss half of their three point attempts.

With Celts/Pelicans playing it got me thinking..

Why not a motherload deal for Brow?

Nets picks, J Brown, Celts take a few bad deals.

Guess NO is probably not near wanting to deal Brow. Too bad.

Don't think that comes anywhere close to Brow

A generational talent for draft picks and Jaylen Brown. Amazing.

Lol

jaylen brown is really good. i think hes gonna be at least as good as jimmy butler, but i dont see pelicans trading davis unless its a crazy offer

Of course Jaylen Brown is a massive dog to ever be as good as Jimmy Butler.

Anyway, how do you make a table using the 2p2 code?

where's Hood?

Mudiay has a .390 eFG% and is averaging 3.2 assists to 4.6 turnovers

Sick.

[table]paste directly from your spreadsheet here with no leading spaces or lines[/table]

Or if you are hand writing it divide with |

[table]fruit|color
apple|red[/table]

Thanks amigo.

Player	From	To	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%
DeMar DeRozan	2010	2012	222	6721	13.4	.525	.062	.361	3.2	10.0	6.6	8.4	1.4	0.8	10.0	22.5
Rudy Gay	2007	2009	238	8048	15.3	.528	.229	.257	4.9	13.9	9.4	8.7	1.8	2.0	12.4	24.3
Andrew Wiggins	2015	2017	172	6133	15.5	.534	.134	.428	4.7	8.5	6.6	10.0	1.4	1.3	11.0	25.1

This is all three players' first 3 seasons, with the obvious caveat that Wiggins has has only played 9 games of his third season. Also worth mentioning in passing is that Wiggins is a year younger than those guys were as well.

They're obviously pretty close in output, but it's surprising that Wiggins has the highest PER, TS%, FTr, AST% and USG%. He's carried a very large role offensively thus far at not awful efficiency.

The real question, imo, is whether he can add enough extra stuff to his game--defense, rebounding, passing--to make him a strong contributor. I don't really buy the idea that he has to be a high volume guy. The Wolves just ask him to right now.

"Wiggins~Gay"was always kinda lazy

Well I think they are important to a lot of teams, provided they can move the ball and set up teammates but more importantly defend.

I've seen less MN games than JTM and MS, but it sure looks like the ball has a tendency to stick once he gets it. The results have been nice this season, but at what cost? I really think there is value to everyone touching the ball and getting scoring opportunities in some sort of flow.

I think MN could still be 'ship level successful with him playing that way if he was at least an above average defender, but so far I haven't seen anything that would lead me to think he sniffs that... which is weird considering his comps coming in the league.. I know STOCKS aren't everything, but he averaged 1stl, .6blk/36 last year which I felt was pretty putrid for someone of his length... but this year he's averaging LESS at .5 st/.5 blk... I didn't think that was possible. It would be one thing if he were a Bruce Bowen type individual defender who kept his man in front and forced tough shots, but his defensive percentages from there are poor as well.

I realize I'm in the minority here, so I guess we'll see how things play out.

@MS, why are the Wolves asking him to be a high volume guy now instead of working on his defense? I guess that's what I don't get, maybe if MN was already stout on that end or really needed scoring, but the last 1.5 years they've been fine offensively and terrible on the other end.

It's lazy if you're comparing the way they get their baskets, not lazy if you're comparing their production or overall "goodness". A lot of people compared LBJ to Jordan after his first few seasons, or KAT to KG despite having much different games.

Man I don't know whether to laugh or cry. The positives are that he's getting to the line and ton and shooting much better (85%), plus his defense has been very good despite what looks like lapses every now and then. He's able to contain bigs on switches and recovers pretty effortlessly, so he's at least been playable on that side of the ball.

But maaaaan his offense. I've never seen someone get to the rim with ease over and over again yet struggle to finish as much as him. Young Austin Rivers and Dion Waiters look at him and laugh ffs.

A lot of this is scheme--he's played the majority of his minutes with Nurkic as the center, and Jusuf just doesn't know how to create space under the rim. Nurk is a pretty bad PnR finisher, and his inability to finish around the rim plus Mudiay's offensive struggles have really made it tough on the young PG. That all changes when he's on the court with Jokic as the center, who's an excellent PnR finisher despite not being able to dunk. Unfortunately Mike Malone has not played them together much--first it was the failed experiment of putting Jokic at PF next to Nurk, and now Mike Malone is playing Nurk in the starting lineup with Jokic backing up because Nikola volunteered and Nurkic has DMC levels of sensitivity.

Add the fact that they played 13 of their first 16 games on the road going back to preseason, have faced 2 teams out of the playoffs (@NOP, @MIN), finally get back home only to be rewarded by getting Golden State... Throw in the musical chairs at wing with Harris/Barton/Chandler all missing time but playing well... and let's just say it hasn't been easy for anyone.

The crazy thing is they are still winning/losing games at a .500 pace when you factor in their scheduling... How they managed to have the 21st best offense despite pretty much everyone sucking and leading the league in TOV% is pretty shocking. Their defense has been miles better, but they set a pretty low bar last year.

Different types of comparisons though. Gay was effectively used to demonstrate a ceiling on Wiggins' production, but Wiggins has some clear strengths over Gay. We can discuss playstyle independent ceilings related to anyone's overall production when using players of Jordan and Garnett's caliber

Edit: Idk what I think of Wiggins overall fwiw. Just think he is walking a very different path than Gay

Yeah I have no idea what to think about him.. If we are going to talk about playing styles, he might be closer to MJ minus the defense, BBIQ, and vision, but that's understating the latter by a wide margin.

Who else was gonna be the high volume guy the past two years? LaVine could barely dribble (and is even younger than Wiggins, amazingly) and KAT was a rookie big last year. Hard to make that guy high volume.

As for this year? It's 9 games man, idk what to say beyond that. He's also not going to shoot 55% from 3. And I have no clue what's leading you to say that they're not working on his defense. I mean this is 1) an NBA team that is 2) coached by Thibs. I would bet my entire net worth at -100000000 that they're working on his defense all the time. He has floated less often imo and stayed engaged more, even though he's still not a very good defender. No reason to think he won't improve.