see my first post on this issue days ago. This is a fallacious argument. Bosh could be much better this year, just doing what he did in TOR, in which case it'd be gg league for the most part.

If the loss of James suddenly turns Bosh back into that player, that's not an indictment on James' value, it's an indictment on Bosh's.

I was saying this before, when I said the Heat would be better w/o Bron, than Chi would be w/o Rose.

You're wasting your time TuT. Buncha Bron lovers, an they ain't hearin' it.

.

Nice post.

Missed Clark's edit on that post. Definitely agree and have been calling that a problem here for a while now.

TZ wouldn't have it any other way.

You responded to this post so not sure how you seemed to miss it....

To clarify, my recent posts had nothing to do with you betting with me

lol man there are 10 double doublers this yr

hgh
love
zbo
griffin
p gasol
noah (34gms)
bogut (51gms)

rondo
nash
dwill

Hell yeah.

Also regarding Labron and MVP. It was known at the time that part of the deal he made when he signed with the Heat was "MVP gonna be tough to win". The team gets worse if Wade leaves too. So what? As your teammates get better, the harder it is to win MVP the way most people define it.

Derek Fisher is higher rated than LeBron.

Thayer,

I guess I'm gonna have to spoon feed you since I addressed that already. I can almost 100% get better lines elsewhere. That doesn't mean RIGHT NOW OMG THIS SECOND SHOW THAY3R (wtf is with that gay 3 anyways?) A TICKET TO PROVE MY MANHOOD. However, once the playoffs approach and series lines get posted, it'll be super easy to cherry pick lines (at better than even money both for Bulls and against Heat) to make money.

All this is aside from the fact that I already bet you 4 grand, so have a nice helping of stfu.

TuT

the fact that you continue to dismiss every single piece of evidence shown your way basically saying "we dont know what we dont know" is borderline trolling and disappointing as youre a very smart poster and much better than that

i dont know what else to say.

-the heat have performed better on the court with lebron than the bulls have with rose.
(more valuable on the court)

-the heat have performed worse with lebron off the court than the bulls have with rose off the court
(miss him more)

and, again, this isnt a tiny difference that you can basically say would even out because without lebron bosh would improve or his usage would go up or w/e

1) w/o rose, boozer's usage would increase so its a similar thing
2) its a HUGE difference (again bulls are +5.0 w/o rose, heat -1.6 w/o LBJ)

i understand these arent /argument type of support for my side, but i do not think they should be ignored and are very telling

Clark, just curious but who do you think was the MVP in 89, 90, 93 and 97?

So the choice is to either give ALL the credit or NONE to Rose? I'm waiting for the next EpiClark post where you argue that Chicago hasn't been a cold city since Rose's arrival....

I think he edited in half that after the fact, but the edited in part is silly. Nobody is making the mistake he's claiming. It's been quite clear from the beginning of the discussion that "is the best" is not the same thing as "has played the best". What's amusing is that Labron, who IS just as good as he was last year, despite not having PLAYED quite as well, has still played better and more valuably than Rose, who is the opposite case, past the margin-of-error

again, this is trolling and terrible.

we've already tried to show that LBJ has performed much better than Rose on the court by comparing them individually/statistically and you wouldn't have any of that latching onto "the bulls need rose more than the heat need lbj" so stats dont matter

lol at this. no one hates on rose. just bc they dont think hte deserves to be the mvp over 2 of the greatest players of all time doesnt mean they hate him.

Geoff,

You posted a stat that has Derek Fisher ranked ahead of LeBron and thus completely ignoring the uselessness of that stat in showing edges in value between two top players. Furthermore, I've never disagreed that LeBron is a better player than Rose nor that he has played better over the course of the regular season vs. all different types of teams. However, I don't think any of that means I have to have him ahead of Rose in the MVP standings because in my opinion he has a better supporting cast which would suffer less without him than the Bulls would without Rose. None of the stats you have brought forward do anything to disprove me there and none can. You can continue to cherry pick stats that make LeBron look better all you want, but it will not accomplish anything.

Lastly, I'm punishing LeBron for his team being worse than Rose's team through 65 games and even more for his team playing like crap against other contenders.

lol at this being a logical conclusion

TuT

Fair enough, we can just agree to disagree

All I've been saying is that I will respect you more when I see you back up your (imo) absurd claim that the Bulls are the BTITE

You've clarified multiple times that you can get better odds elsewhere, I accept that and it's not in dispute so I'm not sure why you keep pointing that out, it's absolutely meaningless to me and my point. My point has just been that if you think what you say then you are missing out on a lot of value.

Only you haven't showed that. You're just cherry picking stats where LeBron is better and not really countering anything Clark or I have said that makes Rose a better MVP candidate by our and a majority of people's MVP definition. I'm not trolling by saying that Derek Fisher ranked higher than LeBron.

Instead of accusing me of trolling, why don't you reflect on why it could be that Derek Fisher can rank ahead of LeBron in that metric and then from there consider how similar errors could lead Rose to be underrated in said metric. Otherwise you're just purely cherry-picking a metric that supports your cause without properly analyzing the situation.

You want to actually discuss things intelligently fine, you want to call me a troll then I'm not going to bother responding to you anymore. Go complain about me in the FAQ thread or something.

I bet Bobbo that the Bulls would win more playoff games than the Celtics. Since the Celtics are the 2nd BTITE, I would think that sufficed.

Cool, it's all good broseph.

Strong disagree - people have making this mistake all the time, and doing so for years in these threads.