NBA Offseason Thread 2017 - Page 67 - Sporting Events and Fantasy Sports

Idk I'm a wolves fan and don't love it

Lowry would be an obv upgrade but will cost a ton

Teague/hill/everyone else out there is either a marginal upgrade over Rubio or a downgrade (imo) and will cost a bunch more. Like I just don't see Teague coming here for what Rubio was being paid

Aldrich really should've been included here too but dunno jazz cap situation

Rubio is a poor fit, even if they get a lesser talent I could see they probably get better if the fit is there.

I like Patty Mills for them if they can't get Hill.

06-30-2017 , 06:14 PM

#1652

tarheeljks

The Dark Knight

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 37,654

kyrie is a lol defender, but he has serious leaks on offense as well. or maybe just one leak, but it is big. if he played more team friendly ball he would actually be an elite offensive player and you could suffer his defense. look at harden. but as is irving is not an elite offensive player despite being supremely skilled as a ball handler, shooter, and finisher. i suppose what i mean is that we can certainly view the issue as "kyrie is a terrible defender," but we could also view it as "kyrie is not actually an elite offensive player."

assani noted that he often does not make the correct play w/n the flow of the offense and moves into iso scoring too quickly*. the aesthetics are great from an entertainment perspective, esp when he goes nuclear, and he is skilled enough to be a very good offensive player anyway. however, it reduces his offensive value significantly. honestly, his propensity to overdribble isn't even inherently damning. it's just that it feels like the shot is basically always going up

*does anyone disagree w/this btw?

edit: i'd also concede that i'm being pretty stingy w/my use of the word elite.

06-30-2017 , 06:14 PM

#1653

DodgerIrish

Fraudulent Zodiac

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 28,239

re: Thibs

I heard audio of him talking, the key he was stressing was windows and how Jimmy was just young enough to make the trade a good decision.

06-30-2017 , 06:15 PM

#1654

GeoffRas22

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wooders0n

I don't know how hot of a take this is but I think Dieng really sucks and they should try to get rid of him and play Towns at 5 exclusively.

Not hot at all, Dieng is fine as a rim protecting back up 5 with a decent mid range jumper. He has ZERO business playing 4 and, even worse, starting at 4. It gets worse when you consider that Towns is the perfect stretch 5 in today's game and both Butler/Wiggins are natural wings who are much more serviceable as small ball 4s than big shooting guards.

The Wolves wud be much better off if they committed to playing Towns/Dieng 0 minutes together (and 100% of teams center minutes) and looked to acquire guards who can shoot.

06-30-2017 , 06:16 PM

#1655

DodgerIrish

Fraudulent Zodiac

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 28,239

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seadood228

Rubio is a poor fit, even if they get a lesser talent I could see they probably get better if the fit is there.

I like Patty Mills for them if they can't get Hill.

Ya, he'd be great and is a realistic goal.

06-30-2017 , 06:19 PM

#1656

DodgerIrish

Fraudulent Zodiac

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 28,239

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheeljks

Kyrie is a street baller basically. That's what Assani was getting at talking about 21.

06-30-2017 , 06:25 PM

#1657

Banzai-

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,728

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assani Fisher

I agree. That wouldn't be a superteam because George Hill isn't quite skilled enough and because, similar to Kyrie, Love isn't a great fit on a superteam.

However, I think swapping Paul George and Hill for Kyrie/Love would be a near neutral swap talent-wise yet would greatly improve their title equity due to fit.

Basically I think Lebron is the GOAT and I think he correctly realized "even though people will initially criticize the building of super teams, they'll forget all about it if you win titles." However he f*cked up by misunderstanding proper superteam building strategy. He went with an antiquated approach of "Well I'm a SF, so I'll get one superstar big man and one superstar guard." He should've instead said "There are only a handful of stud versatile SF/PF hybrids like myself in the league and our skillsets are PERFECT for superteams. Moreover, opposing teams absolutely need one of these players to stop me. Therefore, I'm going to find 2 of these types of players to team up with."

Imo Lebron + Paul George + Gordon Hayward + solid role players + good coach would be solid favorites(at least -200 w/HCA) vs Warriors

Was with you until the last paragraph. Lol c'mon maybe if Durant or Curry didn't play. Have you seen the Warriors?

06-30-2017 , 06:25 PM

#1658

timhardawyhatesu

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,245

Hey guys patty mills sucks. He wont be great anywhere

06-30-2017 , 06:26 PM

#1659

DodgerIrish

Fraudulent Zodiac

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 28,239

He's a great shooter, and Minny needs quality shooting.

You just don't want him as your primary ball handler. The fit with Butler is great.

06-30-2017 , 06:27 PM

#1660

Seadood228

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheeljks

I do. I tend to think playing with the GOAT has turned him into this great player all the sudden when he has pretty big leaks as you mentioned. I wouldn't want him as a lead guy on a young team that's for sure.

06-30-2017 , 06:27 PM

#1661

Seadood228

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And trade Wiggins for Paul George like now, that would be so sick.

06-30-2017 , 06:32 PM

#1662

captain binkles

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Seadood228

Definitely favors it. Anyway I think the majority of his issues are related to his handle--it's very rudimentary for someone in the NBA imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assani Fisher

I mostly just lurk TZ these days, but the Hill/Kyrie convo piques my interest. I think Hill is tremendously underrated and Kyrie overrated(especially in the context of being on a "super team") due to one small yet overlooked skillset: The ability to make a quick and correct "next pass."

When watching Kyrie play, its pretty clear that he learned to play basketball by playing streetball in the United States. Often times, before 10 people show up, you'll play 21(an "everyone for themselves" game which forces every player to improve their isolation scoring skills). And then once you finally do get 10, it ends up being a situation where players take turns isolating each possession instead of playing cohesive team basketball. As such, players like Kyrie develop great court vision/passing when they have the ball in their hands, but they never quite master the ability to scan the court and make a read WHILE THE BALL IS STILL IN THE AIR BEING PASSED TO THEM. And so when the offense would benefit from a quick "next pass", Kyrie's first instinct is to catch it and begin a series of one-on-one moves as he scans the floor for open teammates. (note: Its possible that young player development in the USA has improved more than I realize the past few years, but things were definitely this way when Kyrie was growing up).

Imo, the most important skillsets for the 2nd and 3rd best players on a superteam to have:

-Ability to hit catch-and-shoot open 3 pointers
-Ability to play one-on-one defense, particularly against the elite SFs
-Ability to play team defense, particularly rim protection
-Ability to make a quick and correct "next pass" within the flow of the offense

Kyrie does 1/4, George Hill does 4/4. Kryie's shot creating ability simply isn't THAT important when you have a superteam.

Also its worth mentioning how much of a "free pass" playing alongside Lebron James gives players. We just saw how hesitant people are to accept CP3's stat-based greatness due to his lack of team success, yet take a look at Kyrie's record without Lebron:

-Cavs went 21-45 his rookie year
-Cavs went 24-58 his second year
-Cavs went 33-49 his third year
-Cavs have gone 4-19 without Lebron since Lebron returned(according to this article: http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-c...main-at-a-loss)

79-171 comes out to a 31.6% W/L record, which would've been 3rd worst in the league last year behind only the Suns and Nets. Thats shockingly bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheeljks

Agreed with both of these posts. I said something similar on another forum right after the finals. I called it 'speed of thought/speed of action' for lack of a better term. Where he actually tends to need the ball in his hands for a few seconds before he can decide what needs to happen next.

That said if I was trading Kyrie to the Jazz I'd want more than Hill coming back.

06-30-2017 , 06:33 PM

#1663

timhardawyhatesu

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,245

Quote:

Originally Posted by DodgerIrish

He's a great shooter, and Minny needs quality shooting.

You just don't want him as your primary ball handler. The fit with Butler is great.

As long as he is not a spur anymore ill take it, which is pretty clear he wont be. He has to be one of the worst defenders that gets good minutes. When hes good he is fun but god damn dude drove me as crazy as anyone ive watched over the last couple of years.

06-30-2017 , 06:54 PM

#1664

Victor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by captain binkles

Yeah, I haven't watched nearly enough Nuggets game to judge, but it looked like he had to throw a lot of those super risky one handed passes partly because his handles weren't under control enough (ie. he'd get a bit of space with a dribble move but then he'd have to flick a one-handed pass because it was his only option).

Agreed with both of these posts. I said something similar on another forum right after the finals. I called it 'speed of thought/speed of action' for lack of a better term. Where he actually tends to need the ball in his hands for a few seconds before he can decide what needs to happen next.

That said if I was trading Kyrie to the Jazz I'd want more than Hill coming back.

in soccer its a known concept that is called tactical speed. essentially, it means seeing how the play will develop before it happens and making the proper play.

but I really disagree with these assessments of irving.

06-30-2017 , 07:26 PM

#1665

Kowabunghole

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 1,645

Wow victor tactical speed ur so woke

06-30-2017 , 07:27 PM

#1666

Kowabunghole

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 1,645

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheeljks

kyrie is a lol defender, but he has serious leaks on offense as well. or maybe just one leak, but it is big. if he played more team friendly ball he would actually be an elite offensive player and you could suffer his defense. look at harden. but as is irving is not an elite offensive player despite being supremely skilled as a ball handler, shooter, and finisher. i suppose what i mean is that we can certainly view the issue as "kyrie is a terrible defender," but we could also view it as "kyrie is not actually an elite offensive player."

assani noted that he often does not make the correct play w/n the flow of the offense and moves into iso scoring too quickly*. the aesthetics are great from an entertainment perspective, esp when he goes nuclear, and he is skilled enough to be a very good offensive player anyway. however, it reduces his offensive value significantly. honestly, his propensity to overdribble isn't even inherently damning. it's just that it feels like the shot is basically always going up

*does anyone disagree w/this btw?

edit: i'd also concede that i'm being pretty stingy w/my use of the word elite.

*an lol

06-30-2017 , 07:28 PM

#1667

Kowabunghole

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 1,645

I couldn't read the rest after that sorry heels

06-30-2017 , 07:28 PM

#1668

markksman

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Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,921

Obviously jazz getting Irving after trading for Rubio makes total sense

06-30-2017 , 07:29 PM

#1669

monikrazy

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,124

Quote:

Originally Posted by capone0

Ricky Rubio will have a new home in the Western Conference, as the Wolves have agreed to trade the point guard to the Jazz for a 2018 protected first-round pick via the Thunder, sources told ESPN's Marc Stein.

Rondo waived.

Yes!