They all at least made the conference finals multiple times lol

Magic>Curry>>Stockton>CP3>Kidd for me. Curry has legit chance to be goat PG and CP3 has a slight chance to go top 3.

You granting that is basically my point.

On it's face, it would seem ridiculous to include Kobe in the discussion of all time great point guards. Harden and Russ are closer to that than the prototypical point guards imo.

Iverson normally isn't considered a point guard, it's all labels largely arbitrarily assigned - similar to teams listing heights.

That is a way worse argument honestly. It ignores the fact that two teams are in a conference and Paul was on the clippers before Golden State was a thing.

I like to think of Jason Kidd from the standpoint of successful playoffs. He took two horribad nets teams to the finals, in an admittedly weak conference. Then as an 87 year old was the second or third most important player on a title team that beat Lebron, Wade and Bosh. Honestly for a traditional point guard playoff success is probably more important than any other position given their control of the offense.

Yeah except multiple times yesterday. I'm not a regular here but have been checking this thread once or twice a week recently and more than one person has made the Paul claim. It is absolutely absurd.
Here is the 2004 Timberwolves roster:


You are making the point with KG. He took that relatively scrubby squad to the WCF to play against the last run of the Kobe/Shaq lakers.

You can't write off lack of post season success in a sport where the best players have a massive impact on the game as simple variance.

Tracy McGrady never made it to a WCF and he had several years with Yao Ming. It impacts how he is and should be viewed as a player.

I'm sure he will lead his team to WCF this year and all this will be moot.

Tl;dr Chris Paul overrated itt

all of these PGs who dribble the air out of the ball will never not be overrated.

Give me a Tony Parker or a CHAUNCEY over these guys who dribble the air out of the ball every game

people only look at the BOX SCORE of course the guy who holds the ball 12 minutes a game is going to have a better BOX SCORE

Steph/Klay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CP3/Harden

A true point guard is someone that would prefer to set up a teammate and get the overall offense running. It's a mindset that translates to the court.

In the case of Rondo, Kidd, and Rubio their limitations coincide with this playstyle. That's not the case with Nash and CP3, who are so teammate scoring focused that they routinely pass up what may be the best shot for themselves in order to get a look for someone else. Rondo is actually the most egregious at this by passing up layups.

Steph (and others) don't err in this way. I'm prbly painting myself in a corner and the game has changed too far, the comps just aren't apples to apples and it's a debate of playstyle by such rankings. Harden still doesn't guard his position if you call him a 1 tho.

So when people say stuff like this, I'm curious what exactly they mean. Like Magic>Curry and Stockton>CP3, are you saying their output/legacies are superior? Or do you actually think that Magic Johnson is better at basketball than Steph Curry, or John Stockton is better at basketball than Chris Paul. One I guess is arguable, the other is as lol as it gets.

Saw TuT mention this earlier as well, but my guess is that people who harp on Paul for dribbling too much haven't watched him much lately. Doc is (and always has been) a terrible offensive coach with an extremely vanilla system, they don't run many set plays, but the Clippers most common set is horns where CP3 immediately dumps it into the high post and starts the action off the ball. There obviously are variations off this initial action, but a lot of them involve him setting down screens for bigs to create cross matches. I think people are making a mistake assuming that because Paul is incredibly gifted with the ball in his hands he must be poor off the ball. If he were in the Spurs system nobody would be talking about him like this. It's easy to forget but his coaches have been Byron Scott, Jeff Bower, Monty Williams, Vinny Del Negro, and Doc Rivers.

This is one of the reasons I'm kinda bummed he ended up on Houston and partly am hoping it doesn't work out this year. Paul on SA just made so much sense- he fits better with the roster and as a guy constantly surrounded by mediocrity what could be better than going to a team that is always getting the most out of its players? Not to mention I think the Spurs+Paul are closer to GS than Hou+Paul. Don't mean to knock 'Antoni, who I think is a good coach in his own right, I just think it would be better if he ended up on the Spurs.

This CP3 discussion has mostly been AIDS. The praise of his defense is mostly pretty lol too. It's not like he's that much of a better defender than Beverley. And even if he Is, and I'm not disputing he's a very good defender, there's just so much impact someone who is 6'0 can have defensively.

I'm a little confused why all the people thinking he makes the Rockets a lot better won't take me up on a friendly wager.

Wasn't originally reported and didn't see it mentioned but Montrezl Harrell also in the deal.

Flawed player but does some things really well and was hyperefficient garbage man to pair with Harden. Clippers really did insanely well to get this haul.

Without adjusting for era obviously curry and cp3 are 1 and 2.

Beverly is making low 5 million/yr for the next 2 years. So how much value is rockets losing trading him?

Maybe his true value is 8 million/season? And the 2nd year he is going to be a headache for the GM who needs to decide whether he will overpay him / trade him / promise him something early to avoid media drama.

Similarly: lou williams only has a year left on what should be an above average contract

But those 2 contracts and a late first (top 3 protected) for a top 10 player is a great deal

When i left yesterday I felt like the conversation was going good because people were actually talking about trade implications for the rockets and the league.

Come back and it's been 100 posts of hating on CP3 because playoff loser flop blabla and all the hot takes that come with it, great

Yeah there's plenty to knock 33-37-year-old Chris Paul at $41 million per year without devolving into dumbass takes about why hes not the GOAT.

Because people can wait and make similar bets with Vegas odds with the win total being like 3.5 wins less. This shouldn't be hard to understand. I'm sure when the odds come out you'd be able to find a friendly bet at fair odds from someone.

cant imagine that is true. there is no way sasha vujacic is still in the nba.

Health. If you want to guarantee me rockets get 80 games of harden again and 60 out of cp3 be my guest

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Warriors won 72 games in 2015-2016 and added Kevin Durant. What should have been the Warriors o/u in 2016-2017?

People would probably take you up on over/under of one playoff series win.

There's a big difference in situations. There's no reason for the Warriors to try to win as many games as possible but there will likely be meaningful seeding implications for the Rockets. If they're much better then they should be able to win more games.

And no I'm not going to bet that the Rockets don't win a playoff series because that's stupid. My entire point is that Chris Paul doesn't move the needle and therefore the trade is stupid for the Rockets.

There's this strange thing going on where everyone seemingly agrees with that at heart but still are pretending it's a great move for the Rockets. Its just weird.

I think many people are just desperately wanting the NBA to be more competitive. This trade isn't doing that.

Oh my God bringing Thomas back would be ****ing incredible

Not just make a huge mistake once in signing IT, make it again, AMAZINGGGGGG.

Thomas and Dolan are still best buddies so this probably happens.

The Knicks can't buy a bucket!