NBA Offseason Thread 2017
08-07-2017
, 09:32 AM
08-07-2017
, 10:32 AM
08-07-2017
, 01:28 PM
Mega multi-quote post incoming...
This is a good point. Does anybody know if it's true? (RPM not using SoS)
Interesting article. Seems like decent suggestions. Especially pawning off Deng to Nets by including Randle (if he improves) + future 1st (from Clarkson or Lopez trades).
If the Lakers clear 2 maxes and somehow land both LeBron and Paul George, that yields a team of Lonzo, Ingram, George, LeBron, Zubac, Kuzma, Nance, Ennis, Hart, vets & mins.
If Lonzo & Ingram develop/improve over the next 2 years, what % chance would you give this team vs GSW in 2019?
This seems like a better real world opinion vs fantasy seamless integration of LeBron into GSW.
You're using quote marks because Iguodala "slowed" LeBron down to 35.8/13.3/8.8/game, and didn't deserve the MVP, right? (Yes, he shot poorly.) And all those "embarrassing" performances by Curry, apart from the 1 bad game, amounted to 27.4/5.0/6.6/game on 64.1% TS, 61.1% eFG, 29.5% Ast%, 28.1% Usg, 21.0 GmSc, 113.2 ORtg, 101.6 DRtg. Do you think that is actually embarrassing?
Great post. LeBron being a great passer but not a great ball mover is a good distinction.
Another good post, with good rationale for the offense dropping off when switching Curry for LeBron.
And a good counter, with one of the takeaways for me being that Dray derives a lot of value from Curry that he likely would not get from LeBron.
Even as a member of Team GSCurry>GSLeBron, I agree theoretically with the above. Because in a vacuum, of course LeBron > Curry, and if you can construct perfect/great fit around them, the LeBron team should beat the Curry team.
That isn't what we were originally discussing though, where I maintain that regarding the current GS team construction alone, Curry enhances the offense much more than LeBron, who would likely change the whole system and reduce the efficiencies gained out of great ball movement and the strengths of existing GS players. Another way to say it is that Curry makes the GS players better on offense more than LeBron would, due to gravity, spacing, ball movement, more & better quality 3's, role, personality, etc.
Gasol is great and would be very interesting. LeBron has traditionally wanted/played with another smaller ball handler out there, so it seems more likely that they'd start Livingston over Iggy or another 3-D wing. I'm also not sure of LeBron playing the 4 full-time defensively. He has traditionally not wanted to do that, and has mainly guarded/been the big in primarily smaller lineups vs each other. Would Durant guard the 4 full-time? You're not likely starting West or McGee, or playing 2 of Gasol/Zaza/West/McGee together for huge minutes.
This yields teams of:
Team Curry: Curry/Klay/Durant/Dray/Zaza, bench Livingston/Iggy/Swaggy/West/McGee/McCaw, etc
Team LBJ 1: CP3/Klay/Durant/LeBron/Zaza, bench Iggy/Swaggy/West/McGee/McCaw, etc
Team LBJ 2: Livingston/Klay/Durant/LeBron/Gasol, bench Iggy/Swaggy/Zaza/West/McGee/McCaw, etc
I'm not sure of the exact order of these. Thoughts?
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probably going to deal him for an expiring if they can.
bleacher report just put out 5 deals the lakers should consider before the end of the season. one of which was; clarkson going to charlotte, lamb + o'bryant + nugs 2nd to brooklyn and then trevor booker's $9mm expiring to la and some other non guaranteed contract.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...mming-national
bleacher report just put out 5 deals the lakers should consider before the end of the season. one of which was; clarkson going to charlotte, lamb + o'bryant + nugs 2nd to brooklyn and then trevor booker's $9mm expiring to la and some other non guaranteed contract.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...mming-national
If the Lakers clear 2 maxes and somehow land both LeBron and Paul George, that yields a team of Lonzo, Ingram, George, LeBron, Zubac, Kuzma, Nance, Ennis, Hart, vets & mins.
If Lonzo & Ingram develop/improve over the next 2 years, what % chance would you give this team vs GSW in 2019?
Quote:
I got this as one of the wrongest things you've ever said. Maybe in magical fairy land where they both swallow their ego and alter their games to suit each other it might not drop off that much (but would still be worse), but in the real world they would spend every game fighting each other for touches, and just be a better version of KD + RWB or 2011 Lebron + Wade. Curry's willingness to play the roll he does as the reigning back to back MVP doesn't get anywhere near the credit it deserves. It's possible extra D would make up for it but it would have a LOT to make up in my opinion.
This seems like a better real world opinion vs fantasy seamless integration of LeBron into GSW.
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lebron's offensive versatility would allow him to dominate within that system or any system ofc, but stylistically it's quite different than the way he has typically played and he has some tendencies that could hurt the offense. the integration of durant was about as seamless as could be reasonably expected imo, and it wasn't actually that seamless if you look back on it. the takes were flying earlier in the season when curry was shooting below 40% from 3 for the first time, was generally playing tentatively, etc. there was a clear transition period and it wasn't terrible, but it was real. the pieces fit weirder within lebron, which is expected seeing as it wasn't built with his skills in mind. specific elements of his play that don't mesh are preferred pace and ball movement. think people will prob jump on the ball movement comment b/c lebron is an elite passer, but he likes to hold the ball and take his time. all that said it could easily be better with him. it wouldn't really surprise me if lebron on the warriors turned into much more of a catch and go player.
i also agree that the swap likely improves the dubs overall b/c a death lineup when lebron instead of curry has an insane defensive ceiling and it's not like the offense is going to fall off a cliff w/lebron even if it is worse.
comparing curry/lowry in that fashion is lol though and i like lowry way more than most here. the basis for that take is prob something like "lowry can shoot 3s ok off the dribble too" which is 1) reductive 2) incorrect
i also agree that the swap likely improves the dubs overall b/c a death lineup when lebron instead of curry has an insane defensive ceiling and it's not like the offense is going to fall off a cliff w/lebron even if it is worse.
comparing curry/lowry in that fashion is lol though and i like lowry way more than most here. the basis for that take is prob something like "lowry can shoot 3s ok off the dribble too" which is 1) reductive 2) incorrect
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The biggest problem is that Draymond is essentially LeBron-lite (in every way). A lot of their offense is putting Draymond in spots as a creator (the midpost, screener when they know Steph is getting doubled) with tons of off-ball action. I've always found it a little baffling that teams don't just say ok Draymond if you're gonna beat us beat us and stick with the shooters, similarly to LeBron. Now LeBron is obviously more skilled as a scorer than Draymond but I think it's a valid point for both. Anyway, a bit of a ramble there but my point is, throw LeBron on the Dubs and he's gonna take Dray's place in a lot of those spots. I think Draymond's passing ability for a guy his size is what makes him such a plus on that side of the ball, but with LeBron in his role he'd spend a lot more time off the ball and become a guy you can just help off of. This was already a concern with Durant, but Durant is an elite 3 pt shooter so he can space the floor off the ball. LeBron is not. Consider their "death lineup", which would obviously be insane defensively, it would have at least two of Dray/Iggy/LBJ off the ball. This would still be an elite offense because of the talent/scheme but I don't think it's possible for them to perform at the level they did last year.
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geoff, nit point and sorry for just ignoring the rest of your post and the greater discussion, but i think opposition teams don't really have the option to 'make dray score' imo (or at least not a good one)
the possessions where dray is a creator are often when teams have doubled steph beyond the 3pt line and are giving up a 4 on 3 anyway, there's always going to be someone open so you can't shut it down once the situation is created other than just forcing dray to score over the guy at the rim (which does work if you've got a good enough rim protector in position). obv dray is involved in a lot more offensive actions than that, but i think that example is worthwhile - it's kind of hard to stop a guy who's just being a link in the chain and not used as the point of attack which is the case on many of the other hc actions dray is involved in
just leaving him wide open to help more is in practice the closest thing that defenses come to trying to make dray beat them. but that doesn't really work too well either, wide open shots from even dray/iggy type mediocre shooters on halfcourt possessions are still really good outcomes relatively. that said if you're trying to scheme against the woyas, that might still be the best chance to try and ride some variance to a decent defensive game
cliffs: it's hard to stop the woyas, more at 11
the possessions where dray is a creator are often when teams have doubled steph beyond the 3pt line and are giving up a 4 on 3 anyway, there's always going to be someone open so you can't shut it down once the situation is created other than just forcing dray to score over the guy at the rim (which does work if you've got a good enough rim protector in position). obv dray is involved in a lot more offensive actions than that, but i think that example is worthwhile - it's kind of hard to stop a guy who's just being a link in the chain and not used as the point of attack which is the case on many of the other hc actions dray is involved in
just leaving him wide open to help more is in practice the closest thing that defenses come to trying to make dray beat them. but that doesn't really work too well either, wide open shots from even dray/iggy type mediocre shooters on halfcourt possessions are still really good outcomes relatively. that said if you're trying to scheme against the woyas, that might still be the best chance to try and ride some variance to a decent defensive game
cliffs: it's hard to stop the woyas, more at 11
That isn't what we were originally discussing though, where I maintain that regarding the current GS team construction alone, Curry enhances the offense much more than LeBron, who would likely change the whole system and reduce the efficiencies gained out of great ball movement and the strengths of existing GS players. Another way to say it is that Curry makes the GS players better on offense more than LeBron would, due to gravity, spacing, ball movement, more & better quality 3's, role, personality, etc.
This yields teams of:
Team Curry: Curry/Klay/Durant/Dray/Zaza, bench Livingston/Iggy/Swaggy/West/McGee/McCaw, etc
Team LBJ 1: CP3/Klay/Durant/LeBron/Zaza, bench Iggy/Swaggy/West/McGee/McCaw, etc
Team LBJ 2: Livingston/Klay/Durant/LeBron/Gasol, bench Iggy/Swaggy/Zaza/West/McGee/McCaw, etc
I'm not sure of the exact order of these. Thoughts?
08-07-2017
, 01:48 PM
08-07-2017
, 03:00 PM
08-07-2017
, 03:41 PM
08-07-2017
, 03:55 PM
08-07-2017
, 08:03 PM
08-07-2017
, 08:16 PM
08-07-2017
, 08:45 PM
08-07-2017
, 08:55 PM
08-07-2017
, 10:30 PM
08-07-2017
, 10:34 PM
08-07-2017
, 10:44 PM
08-07-2017
, 10:58 PM
08-07-2017
, 11:08 PM