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View Poll Results: Who's winning?
Heat in 4 11 9.24%
Heat in 5 34 28.57%
Heat in 6 21 17.65%
Heat in 7 6 5.04%
C's in 4 4 3.36%
C's in 5 0 0%
C's in 6 11 9.24%
C's in 7 8 6.72%
Heat in negative infinity 8 6.72%
lol East 16 13.45%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-09-2012, 01:45 AM   #5276
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

Yeah KAJ should be up there (shouldn't have been forgotten--but for some reason I always forget him). He wasn't best all time at his peak though, prime LBJ, MJ or Wilt have that locked down.

Duncan, Russell are in the same bredth as well but I tend to not be a huge fan of Russell.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:47 AM   #5277
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

KAJ also won a title in his second year as the undisputed best player on his team.

didn't have WILt's/LBJ's problem in the playoffs.
was much more of a force on defense than MJ.

Also, WILT couldn't shoot FTs, like Shaq, Kareem didn't have that weakness. He literally had no weaknesses.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:48 AM   #5278
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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lol
i dont get it?
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:48 AM   #5279
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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lolrose. He wasn't even top 5 in his mvp year.

Durant > Dwight and it's only close because of Dwight's durability.
After much extremely deep thought here's my top 5:

1) Labron
2) Durant
3) Howard
Tied for 4) Rose and Love.

I still think a healthy Rose is definitely top 5.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:51 AM   #5280
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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KAJ also won a title in his second year as the undisputed best player on his team.

didn't have WILt's/LBJ's problem in the playoffs.
was much more of a force on defense than MJ.
Less competitive league especially during the 70s.

KAJ came in out 22 and he was the GOAT in college. Lebron entered the NBA at 18 I believe.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:53 AM   #5281
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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Less competitive league especially during the 70s.

KAJ came in out 22 and he was the GOAT in college. Lebron entered the NBA at 18 I believe.
KAJ was better at 23 than LBJ at 23.

Last edited by Ray Horton; 06-09-2012 at 01:55 AM. Reason: 22.3 WS to 15.2 WS.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:03 AM   #5282
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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Rudy Gay, Joe Johnson, Rashard Lewis and others have gotten max that didn't deserve it by any means. Harden will easily get max unless he really wants to stay in OKC or a complete idiot. Harden will be what 24 when he gets to his big deal.
unique situations with those guys. contracts are not analogous to value, esp with the old cba. given the option of overpaying joe johnson or doing nothing, i think its pretty obv wat shud be done. moast dont, but i guess thats bc they have no understanding of circumstance.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:04 AM   #5283
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

you can certainly argue kaj over anyone but jordan
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:12 AM   #5284
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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Less competitive league especially during the 70s.

KAJ came in out 22 and he was the GOAT in college. Lebron entered the NBA at 18 I believe.
I dunno about the less competitive league argument... Fewer teams back then would generally mean better talent 1-12 than teams these days.

I'm not saying you're wrong just suggesting there are arguments to the contrary.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:15 AM   #5285
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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I dunno about thr less competitive leavue argument... Fewer teams back then would generally mean better tallent 1-12 than teams these days.

I'm not saying you're wrong just suggesting there are arguments to the contrary.
Not as many teams. Playoffs are shorter.
Boston Russell era is over.
Game isn't nearly as popular as it is now. This is the biggest factor. Talent level now is definitely greater than the 70s.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:21 AM   #5286
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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Not as many teams. Playoffs are shorter.
Boston Russell era is over.
Game isn't nearly as popular as it is now. This is the biggest factor. Talent level now is definitely greater than the 70s.


Totally agree ahletes are better now but if players from the 60's and 70's were exposed to the same diet and training advances they'd likely be just as athletic.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:27 AM   #5287
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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Originally Posted by ILOVEPOKER929 View Post
After much extremely deep thought here's my top 5:

1) Labron
2) Durant
3) Howard
Tied for 4) Rose and Love.

I still think a healthy Rose is definitely top 5.
I agree with 1-2-3 and there's no question about that for me. Durant's intangibles and Dwight being a moron makes 2-3 easy for me.

But Rose is out until what.. May!? Will he truly be making a "full" recovery by that time? I think he got injured so much this past season, yes in part because of the lockout condensed season, but also because he's actually not that durable. I can't place Rose in the top 5.

Hopefully Rondo gonna Rondo tonight. It would be amazingly epic for LeBron and the Heat to lose in game 7 at home. I'm not a LeBron hater by any means, I just enjoy witnessing epic events.

Hai EYESCREW! I read that Lamar Odom may be on his way back to the Lakers, either by the Mavs re-wording Odom's contract so they can trade him back to L.A. or so he can re-join the Lakers after being traded to another team and then released. #TasteTheRainbow
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:31 AM   #5288
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

Alvin Gentry, Suns head coach, said on the radio the other day that he thinks Harden is "a top 10 player" itl
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:33 AM   #5289
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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Hopefully Rondo gonna Rondo tonight. It would be amazingly epic for LeBron and the Heat to lose in game 7 at home. I'm not a LeBron hater by any means, I just enjoy witnessing epic events.
'sup homie!

I keep going back and forth. I want to see the Heat lose but at the same time we both know the best NBA finals matchup would be a Thunder vs Heat matchup so it's hard for me to root against that.

KD is going to style all over LBJ and forever be known as King Durant! Or something like that. Lol
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:42 AM   #5290
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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'sup homie!

I keep going back and forth. I want to see the Heat lose but at the same time we both know the best NBA finals matchup would be a Thunder vs Heat matchup so it's hard for me to root against that.

KD is going to style all over LBJ and forever be known as King Durant! Or something like that. Lol
LOL King Durant. Oh man, that's ****in good.

I'll be happy either way. Celtics ridic game 7 upset or Heat vs. Thunder = Crazy Delicious Finals. I am curious as hell though how LeBron is going to play tonight in game 7.

It'll really show his psyche too. Cuz how the **** do you top his game 6 performance!? You really can't.. so it's sort of like okay, he had Maslow's peak experience, where does he go from here? Does he somehow maintain that GOAT level of skill and efficiency, or does he "regress to the mean"?

If he manages a similar performance tonight in game 7 to ensure a Heat victory, then all the true LeBron haters should get a 24 hour self-ban or something.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:42 AM   #5291
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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Alvin Gentry, Suns head coach, said on the radio the other day that he thinks Harden is "a top 10 player" itl
Alvin would know better than me but until I consistently see Harden have to score against and defend against opponent's starters every night it's crazy to assume he can do so...

I'm not saying he can't or won't I just want to see him do it as a team's number one option.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:52 AM   #5292
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

Imo its weird how much hate lebron gets. Yeah, he's not very self aware and prob a huge narcissist (The Decision fiasco) but he doesn't get in trouble with the law, doesnt get in fights on the court, he's not a dick to his teammates, he plays nice with the media/fans, and afaik has said he would have gone about the Decision differently if he could do it over again.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:53 AM   #5293
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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LOL King Durant. Oh man, that's ****in good.

I'll be happy either way. Celtics ridic game 7 upset or Heat vs. Thunder = Crazy Delicious Finals. I am curious as hell though how LeBron is going to play tonight in game 7.

It'll really show his psyche too. Cuz how the **** do you top his game 6 performance!? You really can't.. so it's sort of like okay, he had Maslow's peak experience, where does he go from here? Does he somehow maintain that GOAT level of skill and efficiency, or does he "regress to the mean"?

If he manages a similar performance tonight in game 7 to ensure a Heat victory, then all the true LeBron haters should get a 24 hour self-ban or something.

If LeBron repeats his game 6 performance and people are still hating on his game they probably do deserve a temp ban.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:56 AM   #5294
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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I agree with 1-2-3 and there's no question about that for me. Durant's intangibles and Dwight being a moron makes 2-3 easy for me.

But Rose is out until what.. May!? Will he truly be making a "full" recovery by that time? I think he got injured so much this past season, yes in part because of the lockout condensed season, but also because he's actually not that durable. I can't place Rose in the top 5.

Hopefully Rondo gonna Rondo tonight. It would be amazingly epic for LeBron and the Heat to lose in game 7 at home. I'm not a LeBron hater by any means, I just enjoy witnessing epic events.

Hai EYESCREW! I read that Lamar Odom may be on his way back to the Lakers, either by the Mavs re-wording Odom's contract so they can trade him back to L.A. or so he can re-join the Lakers after being traded to another team and then released. #TasteTheRainbow
If Boston wins tonight, this will go down as my all time favorite non-Piston playoff series. #1 for me right now is the Houston-Phoenix 1995 series (although I have forgotten virtually all of it). Houston was down 3-1 to a very awesome Barkley+KJ crew and 2 out of the 3 remaining games was @Phoenix, and of course as you know, the Rockets pulled it out and went on to win the NBA championship. Boston winning tonight would be sweeter than witnessing that.

If Boston loses tonight then I'll have that same feeling I had after the Pacers lost game 7 to the Knicks (the Spike Lee year) after going up 3-2 in the series: A classic series that gets ruined cause the wrong team won.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:57 AM   #5295
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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Imo its weird how much hate lebron gets. Yeah, he's not very self aware and prob a huge narcissist (The Decision fiasco) but he doesn't get in trouble with the law, doesnt get in fights on the court, he's not a dick to his teammates, he plays nice with the media/fans, and afaik has said he would have gone about the Decision differently if he could do it over again.

Besides all this the guy should get a little sympathy because his mom sucked off DeLonte West. That would traumatize just about anybody.

Last edited by EYESCREW; 06-09-2012 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:16 AM   #5296
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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unique situations with those guys. contracts are not analogous to value, esp with the old cba. given the option of overpaying joe johnson or doing nothing, i think its pretty obv wat shud be done. moast dont, but i guess thats bc they have no understanding of circumstance.
Are you saying they should have maxed Joe Johnson? I mean amnesty predictions aside, I never liked that deal. Something about taking a small step backward not to take a giant leap that direction in the future.

of course amnesty fixes all of that unless you're lolNy
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:26 AM   #5297
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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harden is one of the easiest maxes possible. ibaka getting maxed would be lol but wud really screw the thunder. i htink he gets like 10m per.

perkins is getting amnestied.
Agree on Harden. He's arguably the best player at the thinnest position ITL, and has the type of game where he can fit with any type of team with his ability to shoot, drive, and pass.

I think Ibaka goes for more, but that's only basing it on DAJ's contract however that could be the exception and not the rule under the new CBA.

Anyway I think people assuming OKC isn't going to hang on to their big 4 are wrong.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:34 AM   #5298
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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Agree on Harden. He's arguably the best player at the thinnest position ITL, and has the type of game where he can fit with any type of team with his ability to shoot, drive, and pass.

I think Ibaka goes for more, but that's only basing it on DAJ's contract however that could be the exception and not the rule under the new CBA.

Anyway I think people assuming OKC isn't going to hang on to their big 4 are wrong.

Dood! What abou Perk's contract? Also Sefolosha and Collison are going to be worth more than league minimums.

15 15 15 15 plus Perk's deal and the rest puts them in hell. Not sure a small market team can afford to pay $50 + million in luxury tax...
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:53 AM   #5299
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

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The 4 basketball players who have had the most written about how not clutch they are are Wilt, Magic, MJ, and LeBron. Magic got ripped for a solid year or two for choking in the Finals against Boston, and the media narrative with Jordan the first 4 years of his peak was that you can't win a title with him as your best player because he shoots too much. It's just something that great players go through when they don't win a title right away. In about 2 weeks, LeBron will have his first ring at a younger age than Jordan did, and everyone will forget that this clutch argument ever came up in the first place.
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Magic won a finals MVP as a rookie with one of the most lauded games in playoff history. They won another title in his third year in the league. Not sure where you're getting the narrative about him being a choker from the outset.
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Magic was a Finals MVP on a team which he wasnt even the best player.

Great player, great clutch performance, no doubt. But it's easier to be clutch when u aren't the marked man. See Horry, Robert.

Kareem missed Game 7 and Magic dominated, but Kareem is the main reason that team got to Game 7.
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This is where he got the "Tragic Johnson" nickname:

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Just admit you guys were wrong about the Magic = choker rep already.

Also, that game against Philly was game 6. His performance ensured there would be no game 7.
A quick google and I pulled up a few mid 80's SI articles and some excerpts below. I'm sure we can find a lot more on the topic. I dont think Iggy is saying Magic was a choker, just that there was a narrative of that in the sports media at the time, and the old articles out there pretty much confirm that narrative was going on during his career. Hell, Kevin McHale called him Tragic Magic.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...9455/index.htm


Quote:
Whatever hurt Johnson felt then was only to intensify as the summer went on. He was stunned at the way he was carved up by the press that had once doted on him. He was particularly wounded by the suggestions that, with the championship at stake, he had choked. "I sat back when it was over," Johnson says, "and I thought, 'Man, did we just lose one of the great playoff series of all time, or didn't we?' This was one of the greatest in history. Yet all you read was how bad I was." A headline that appeared on a column in The Los Angeles Times asked EARVIN, WHAT HAPPENED TO MAGIC? A month later, a columnist for The Los Angeles Herald-Examiner referred to Johnson as "the tarnished superstar" and "the goat of the series," and pointed out that with the world watching him, and "right there against his arch rival, Larry Bird, he failed."
Quote:
With Abdul-Jabbar at home nursing a sprained ankle, Johnson, after jumping center to open the game, fashioned a monument to his versatility with 42 points, 15 rebounds, seven assists and three steals. After that, whenever something bad happened in Lakerland, Magic usually got the blame. "It's going to fall on somebody's shoulders," Magic says. "It just always seems to come back to mine, one way or another."
another article fwiw
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...2425/index.htm

"Johnson In The Clutch: Don't Call Him Magic, Just Call Him Unreliable"

Quote:
A cover story in the June 4, 1984 issue of SI didn't exactly make the claim that he was a clutch player, saying only that, compared with the Celtics' Larry Bird, Magic is the better "money" player. But it's important to bear in mind there are two kinds of money players: those who produce over the course of a big game and those who produce in those rare, demanding moments we call the clutch. That distinction is critical.

Give Magic the ball, a few fleet teammates, a little adrenaline, and he's off, running. He's a self-styled hoops hedonist, pro basketball's Cyndi Lauper. He "just wants to have fun." That's all well and good, and for most of the NBA season it's a productive attitude, one that pleases fans. He has his fun and seems to run the break and run up his statistical totals almost effortlessly. He has bushels of "triple doubles"—games in which he reaches double figures in points, rebounds and assists.

Magic refers to what he does as "Showtime." Presumably, the bigger the game, the bigger the production. But you can't have fun in the clutch; Lordy, you can't crack a smile in the clutch. The clutch is a crucible. Calling on Magic then is like asking Busby Berkeley to step in and direct the climactic scene in an Ingmar Bergman movie.
Quote:
It has become fashionable to cite as evidence of Magic's ability to rise to big occasions his 42-point, 15-rebound, seven-assist performance in Game Six of the '80 NBA finals, when the Lakers, without Abdul-Jabbar, who was injured and not even at the game, routed the 76ers in Philadelphia to win the title. Magic partisans also point out Michigan State's 75-64 defeat of Bird and Indiana State to win the NCAA crown in 1979. But since neither game was close, there weren't any true clutch moments.
Quote:
A more telling test: the final game in the 1981 L.A.-Houston best-of-three miniseries, when the Rockets threatened to oust the defending champion Lakers in L.A. First, with the score tied at 85, :30 left. Magic blew two of three free throws. After the Rockets scored to go up 87-86, the Lakers looked to Magic once more. With :03 left, he didn't just miss; his driving jumper in the lane didn't even draw iron. Exit L.A.
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Old 06-09-2012, 04:03 AM   #5300
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Re: NBA ECF: Heat vs Celtics

Then the Lakers won the NBA championship 3 out of the next 4 years... Beating the Celtics twice and quieting the critics....
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