Hero,

Is that because you're a fan of the PAC, specifically a fan of Arizona? Asking for a friend

Why, yes, I support the Conference of Champions. Who wouldn't?

But by that logic I could also be biased towards Fultz.

So you might be raids is what I'm getting at

Only took three years but here we are

Maybe you should consult your friend on that one, 8.

I just realized that if Sacramento binks the #1 pick it goes to Philly.

Then if the Lakers fall to #4 it goes to Philly as well.

So Philly could get the #1 and #4 picks in this draft. So ****ing sick.

They should be forced to bring back Hinkie if that happens.

purely talking defense on lonzo v fultz - it seems to me that it's comparable. but curious to hear alternative arguments

both have the kind of physical advantage over most pgs that should make it possible to be a really strong defender, and back it up with strong stocks numbers. fultz's basic measurables especially are about as ideal as it gets for a pg (6'4, 6'9 span, 190lbs), these compare favorably to strong pg defenders like wall/rubio/george hill. he's also a bit beefier than ball which may help in crossmatching more

one argument against fultz here is that his path to eliteness is probably being a harden type of guy on offense and it's hard to maintain a lot of defensive effort with that kind of burden (in theory, i personally think this is a bit of an excuse since much of defense is about cerebrally avoiding mistakes moreso than competing with manic energy). lonzo is so good at keeping the offense humming without the ball in his hands that he theoretically should be able to maintain defensive focus. that said, both seem a bit lazy by nature anyway

Totally agree with this.

Huge size at PG
Elite vision and creativity
Decision making and unselfishness
Oh and he's shooting > 40% from 3pt on > 5 3pa/game

Like he could have a microfracture of both legs and still be a rotation player

Lonzo should also age better than Fultz for previously stated reasons.

how often does a player with lonzo's 3pt shooting stats turn out to be not actually that good of a shooter? i guess the answer is not super often, but it's a small sample size, and the ft% is concerning. a recent example is brandon ingram, who shot >5 3s a game at >40% last year yet has been a bad shooter in the nba so far (as his 68% college fts may have suggested) - early days for him though

looking at this list, most of the future nba guys ended up being fine 3pt shooters, so i guess you probably have to assume lonzo is going to be at least average most of the time:
players who shot >5 3s @ >40% since 2001


of course, exactly the same red flag can be raised for fultz who's ft% is even worse than lonzo's. fultz's overall lack of efficiency is mostly tied to his reliance on midrangers and bad ft%. i think there's a few reasons to be a bit more confident in his 3pt shot though:
- while you can argue shooting lots of midrangers is bad, fultz at least seems good at it: 40% of shots @ 44%
- shoots harder jumpers generally than lonzo, more off the dribble etc, and his shot seems more versatile
- pretty form

Lonzo can only shoot when he dribbles to the left. Good luck itl

Then why hasn't he figured out he isn't gonna get that shot of his off vs a lot of nba defenders.

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So basically Fultz/Ball ceiling is GOATpg. I like Ball better but im biased i imagine from seeing alot more Ball this season. Everytime ive watched him hes been lights out so that helps his case.

With all these good pg prospects(2elite 4good-really good) coming out i imagine theirs going to be a later first or 2nd round pg who ends up looking like a steal a few years from now as well.Wonder who that guy is going to be.

Fultz just seems like a great scorer. Nothing more. Can we honestly say he's shown more than that? Sure UW hasn't been the place to highlight much else but I'm not sure that puts his ceiling especially high at this point. He's very skilled but also plays slow, almost deliberately so. I wonder if he's really that agility will stay elite moving over to the NBA.

On the other hand, I've notice Lonzo also is very deliberate with his decisions, like for example his passes. They're just so quick, well timed and perfectly placed there's not a lot that can be done.
#CoC

fultz is def a very strong passer, 6apg is good, and his overall turnover rate is low for the huge usg he shoulders. he also gets a lot of stocks + has good rebounding numbers too

it's not fair to chartacterise him as a purely ball dominant guy either imo, scouting reports note his willingness to make simple/effective plays and to play off the ball at times

Not taking lonzo first is just pure fps. The rest of the lottery is super interesting bro speculate about.

Strongly disagree with all of this.

Lonzo is great, sure. But saying he is worlds ahead of Fultz is ridiculous and wrong.

Lonzo has only mediocre-decent athleticism and as great a passer and as smart a player as he is, he actually is not an elite ball handler. If you watch him, he actually very rarely puts his head down and drives to the hoop--and when he does, he goes right and often gets stopped (though he is very capable of finding a cutter or spot up shooter in these situations). His size, while a HUGE asset in college will merely serve just as an equalizer on the next level given that many guards that are smaller can jump just as high. And the funky delivery on his shot, while it works for him and he clearly shoots at a high clip, may be a problem at the next level anyway because he will get blocked much easier than he would if he had more standard mechanics.

Dissimilarly, Fultz has basically no weaknesses. It's true that he may not literally have GOAT potential, but he basically becomes Dame like always. I don't think Ball has literal GOAT potential either, unless he vastly improves in his ability to drive and score outside of jumpshooting.

I think Ball is probably #2, but I would take Fultz #1. If you think Ball is #1 I wouldn't have an hours long debate with you (even though I disagree), but if you think Ball isn't even close to Fultz than I would.

Lonzo is extremely athletic. Harden is a good comp, frankly. Lonzo has more bounce tho.

yeah Im on the fultz > Ball train. I think Ball has a higher floor but I think we are getting ahead of ourselves on these comps. Fultz I think hasn't really tapped his potential (well neither has, but bigger room to grow imo) hes a late riser, I believe he played JV basketball as a sophomore, while Ball has been groomed to be a NBA pg for life. While I trust Ball to be a better decision maker, I don't think hes a great athlete for a NBA starting PG, and not sure I believe his 3 point shooting %s. I don't have the stats in front of me but Im sure Fultz 3s attempts were a much higher difficulty

Look at the top 15 PGs in the world. Almost all of them (hard to say obv but maybe 10-11?) are better athletes than Ball.

on difficulty of fultz's 3s, 45% off them were unassisted which is comparable to lillard's senior year (lillard higher volume though) i disagree with this but the harden comp doesn't make sense to me, harden was like 220lbs coming in and ball is a rake. ball isn't gonna go through guys like harden can, doesn't have the strength or length let alone the skillz

imo ball is a strong athlete for a pg though, how many pgs can do stuff like this (the 3 dunks from his debut)? i think basically none tbh, because pgs rarely dunk and lonzo is really big for a pg. other pgs have their own advantages over ball too but it's wrong to imply that his athleticism is going to be some barrier to him being good


as an aside, some trivia on the top 5 pg dunkers this year:

Lillard is Fultz upside imo. And I think he gets there or close pretty often.

I would take Lonzo over Lillard for most teams.

Look at the top 6 PG's of all time:

Magic
CP3
Stockton
Nash
Kidd
Curry

How many of those guys are super athletes?

PG is all about skill and brains. There is the occasional Russ superman act, but most of the great athlete PG's are not historically good.

Yeah this isnt athletics it's basketball. And lol at worrying about Ball's shoot ing mechanic. He will be fine.

He can't shoot going right. Ugliest form in the league